ScaredSilly

The FS has been using the wilderness values narrative for a very long time. To bring it closer to home when dealing with the fixed anchors in wilderness that narrative was front and center as it is for other issues. So I am not surprised by the FS proposing to use it as part of the commercial permitting process. They are at least trying to be consistent. Whether one agrees with the overall premise of the narratives is a different issue. Fair enough but are you talking about private or commercial usage permits and fees? This discussion is really about commercial fees which IMHO are a different beast than those on the private side.

Re-read my full post as well as the proposed rules as you have not understood either. 0. The proposed rules concern strictly commercial photography. 1. There is already regulation for commercial photography - the FS is proposing making wilderness values part of the permitting process. 2. The FS is proposing making a broader inclusion for other commercial usages. Some agree with some I do not. As I stated someone who makes their living from shooting commercial photos I see nothing wrong with a permit. However, re-read the conditions I put on that. In the mean time carefully think about the difference between the permit needed for a preplanned commercial shoot and the lack of there of for a commercial photographer doing a speculative shoot. 3. As I stated for the incidental photos taken by private individuals, they should not be charged. Bronco regarding Bishops bill, he is a turd when it comes to Federal lands and thinks the states should control them so they can be sold to the highest bidder for extraction.

Interesting ... I think the media in most cases should not need a permit (a news story with a timely interest vs a news feature story with no time factor). However, if a someone wants to come into any federal lands for the main purpose of taking photographs for commerce then a permit should be required (i.e National Geographic, a photographer selling photos on a speculative basis, i.e. a pro-photog Ansel Adams, Galen Rowell). Private individuals are not part of this proposed rule making, unless they perhaps later sell their photos (i.e. Patagonia fun hog). In reading the rules it seems that in general these are the current rules that apply to all Forest Lands, with the exception of pro-photos and private person later selling a photo. However, the Forest Service now wants to bring in the permit process the Wilderness Act requirements. I can understand that perspective. I think the concern should be with incidental photos and with pro-photogs like those I mentioned above. With pro-photogs I see no reason why they should not have a permit - however, it should be a forest wide permit rather than on a per forest basis. As for the incidental photos, they should not be charged.

Interesting. The video sucked until they stop moving the damn camera, then it was cool.

Bummer for those folks. I have heard of similar stories on multiple occasions. Typically a car is broken into, while the registration was not taken the garage door remote was taken. Instant access to the house as most folks do not lock the door between the inside of the house and garage. While I have not redacted our address, we no longer keep any identifying information in the glove box. It is elsewhere in the vehicle. If I get pulled over I will explain where it is and why. Similarly the garage remote is no longer on the visor, but elsewhere with in easy reach.

Late in the season, July/Aug the route gets a lot of sun cups which can be a PITA. But the two steps are icier.

This, I have taken some low clearance cars up some roads that many would not. Careful and skill full driving will almost always get you to where you want to be. Though I have a 4x4 truck that just means I can get myself twice as stuck as 2wd car.

One can say that about many routes. The DC has similar objective danger. While one should try minimize it, I am not sure I would make such a statement. In fact, I would say the Kautz Glacier Route is perhaps one the finest moderate routes on the hill and would recommend it to climbers wanting something other than the Emmons/DC.

That is exactly what my partner and I thought. Plus the views over to Sunset Amp and down the Tahoma were great to see. New territory which got us thinking about a west side route which we have yet to do.

Nice write up and I like the evening photo. FWIW while the traditional route traverses the top of Wapowety Cleaver at 13k then over to the Nisqually one can instead head straight up and stay to the left of the seracs that divide the Kautz from the Nisqually. There are cracks but in the end one comes pretty close to Pt. Success (and not too far were the OP ended up but without all the traversing back and forth). From there it is an easy walk over to Pt. Success which should not be missed. Gator does not show this variation in his book but Fred has it listed as well the as the true Ice Cliff variations that Walter mentions. Another small clarification the true Camp Hazard is actually higher up and above the rappel by maybe another 100 vertical feet. More or less to the right of the word "Lower Ice Cliff" (or as Walter notes should the Lower Ice Chute). Most do not camp there because of the danger of falling ice. Most now seem to camp near the rappel but later in the season it is devoid of snow for water.

The pack was in the way of the harness and making sure it would be properly secured on the victim. That said, it appeared he was able to take the pack off pretty easily and looked to be more in a position of not being able to go up or down. As for leaving the pack part of me is surprised the victim did not take it with him. However, the rescue crews are taught not to bother with anything other than the victim. That said at 4:40 it would appear the victim motioned over his shoulder to get the pack. The PJ probably told him to leave it. When we got picked up we were told to leave everything but our wallets and cameras - I took my ice axe while my partner spontaneously left his lunch. But then again they did not drop anyone in but left us to our on devises (i.e. put the screamer suits on).

No real rock fall and enough snow to cover everything. Once the snow is gone the north ridge is not the way to go. The day we climbed was the hottest day of the year. Well into the 90s in the Willamette Valley. It would not have matter much what time we started.

Was up there a week ago on the Prouty Glacier. Snow from the Green Lakes/Moraine Lake junction upwards. Lakes are still frozen over. The snow is pretty sloppy once the sun hits it. http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1126125/TR_South_Sister_Prouty_Glacier#Post1126125

Trip: Mt Jefferson - Jeff Park Glacier/North Ridge Finish Date: 7/1/2014 Trip Report: Stupid wet white men walking in circles - My friend Vince and I decided that Mt. Jefferson would be our trip objective. So armed with an inaccurate weather forecast we headed in to Jeff Park. Though the weather was marginal going in we thought it would clear. But it did not. So after being tent bound in the rain for 36 hours we bailed and starting hiking in the rain again. We had got into Jeff Park which from the PCT was all snow. Going out we wandered a bit in the rain and fog to find a descent crossing - the Whitewater Creek is raging and the snow bridges are weak. We finally found a good crossing on snow and got back to our original tracks. Stupid wet white men walking in circles. After a couple days of drying out and armed with a good forecast we headed back into Jeff Park. The weather on Monday was stellar. We found our crossing - a good log about 1/4 mile up from the trail. We cross through Jeff Park and headed up high to around 6500 on the left side Jefferson Glacier along a moraine. From here we got a good look at the route. Jeff Park Glacier on the left then up to join the North Ridge up high. This variation is shown in Oregon High but oddly Jeff does not describe it. We chose this variation because while the Jeff Park Glacier is straight forward the knife edge ridge above is not especially when covered in rime. Which is currently the case. Heading up the glacier we crossed a small shrund just below the first rock band which we skirted on the left. From here we head straight up into the next rock band. Here we found a small semi rotten ice chute which to pass through. After clearing the rock band we climbed straight up to gain the north ridge proper. From here one climbs up and left over a series of small ribs. Now in the sun the snow was firm but getting soft. Eventually we came around a corner and were right across from the plateau / col of the north ridge. (I.e. as described in Oregon High one could not climb up through a chute to gain the upper ridge - one had to traverse around what I like call the Unconglomerated Monster that form the upper north ridge). From the plateau / col we traverse over to the pinnacle which was completely covered in rime. Much of which was starting to deteriorate. We did the 4th class route which being covered in rime was easier and harder. Easier climbing but no real pro. I set a couple of screws but they were marginal. The route goes up a short chute followed by a traverse to the right up another chute which leads to the summit. The coup de grace was the finial step was rotten 4 foot step. That was fun given the lack of pro. Especially as we down climbed it. We took 7 hours to top out and another 4 to descend via the Mill Creek / Russell Glacier. It was a wet sloppy descent. But we finally got back to camp to enjoy a nice evening. That is until about 2am when the lightening and rain storm started. We descended in the morning in the rain and found our trail back, even found the log to cross the creek. We laughed at our luck. Stupid wet white men walking in circles. Gear Notes: Pickets as the snow is rotten, screws will work in a few places. Approach Notes: Jeff Park trail - cross the creek 1/4 mile up stream on a log. Jeff Park is very soggy right now. Bivy up high on the left side of the Glacier in the moraine, descend via the Russell Glacier. Props: The Cedars restaurant in Detroit for letting us stash a vehicle at there lot while we climbed. Also their breakfast omelet is excellent. Left side of Jeff Park Glacier. Routes goes up to the shrund, passes the first rock band on the left, then straight through the second to the north ridge in the sun light. Going up through the second rock band. The summit ridge coming in from the north.

Crevasses are covered, shrund is open but is crossable in a couple of places. Far right or a bridge in the middle. The upper part is rimed up pretty good. Lots of snow from the PCT on wards.

Trip: South Sister - Prouty Glacier Date: 6/24/2014 Trip Report: I needed a warm up before my partner arrive from BC for our every other year climbing trip. South Sister is one of the few Cascade peaks that I have not been on before so with the road open and a day to kill I hiked into Green Lakes for the night. The trail in is continuous snow from just before the Moraine Lake trail junction. It is nicely consolidated for the most part - rotten near some rocks. I went around the lakes on the west rather where the trail would be on east side. The route up to the Prouty Glacier is easy and all consolidated snow. The Prouty Glacier itself was a field of mush. It did not help the night before it rained a bit and the temps were warm. It would have helped if I got up earlier too as the sun was doing its thing. Wet slides are a real possibility. The two bergshrunds are easy to cross and is the only good way up as the headwall routes are melted out or a bowling alley. Above the bergshrunds the snow is better. I did a lap around the summit crater and then headed down. The snow was mushy enough that I was tempted to bum slide down the Prouty but decided with my luck I'd bounce into the bergshrund so I hiked it. That said several of the slopes below were perfect for boot skiing so that was fun. All in all a fun outing. It took about 2.5 hours to Green Lakes and about 4 hours to the summit. Coming down was 1.5 hours back to my camp and 2.5 hours out. I did not see another person after the Moraine Lake junction so basically had the hill to myself. If one took skis an easy day trip. Gear Notes: Trekking poles, crampons, axe (I never used mine). Approach Notes: Park at Green Lakes Trailhead - do not forget to pay the man your $5.

Was just on South Sister on the Green Lakes side and there is a reasonable amount of snow but the lower snow fields are sun cupped. The Prouty side had descent snow but was pretty mushy. Cool temps today so might be reasonable - gotta get up early though.

DPS a couple observations, the snow is going. I think freezing levels are going back up this week. The step in pink that they went around we were able to climb directly - though it was rotten snow and ice. Going around it adds time. The snow on the ramp is mostly sun cupped and many other areas. Thus my observation is that the snow fields will get icy but the rocks steps more difficult. There is the step down low but also several up high in the exit gully. The tops of those were like frozen kitty litter when did them. Sans snow or ice, though short they could be really interesting.

Sometimes route finding is just plan dumb luck. As mentioned, we were heading to the Wickwire variation and my partner decided to cut back and viola a simpler way through the rock band - but conditions do change. Ya worked it out.

I think what may have gotten you off route was the fact that you traversed way around to the right then back left at the foot of the first rock band to get past a short but rotten rock step (pink in your picture). If you look at the picture in Fred's book (p123) you went around the buttress where the label "free variation". Just to right of the "Open Book" label is we found a rotten but climbable snow/ice step. That brings one up further along the shelf, then one traverses perhaps another 100/150 feet or so. At that point one starts looking left for the escape (about where the arrow is located). This description is what we wrote for Gaiter in his book and is not the Wickwire variation which is further up and to the right and what we were originally aiming to reach. That said I remember my partner finding the escape ledge and coming up and seeing the first snow field in front of us and knowing where we were and that it would go. Amazing to see so many sun cups - the snow is low.

You need to work yer beer drinking skills more ... last time we did Joe's route we left the saddle at 10am cause my partner admitted half up the the Palmer he was hung over. I made him do Sandy the next day.

Depending on conditions the right hand side is a few technical moves then done or can be a rocky/icy pitch. The left hand side can be like they had with a steep vertical pitch on the serac or like when did it a steep rising traverse. In years past there was even a snow ramp. All depends on what has calved off recently. That said it seems that in the recent past more have gone right than left.

I meant Carbon River. The Carbon River Road is also closed (semi-permanently) at the ranger station. From there it is 5.5 miles to Ipsut Creek Campground. Same road walking distance as the Mowich Lake Road when it is closed. Then you are at the trail to Seattle/Spray Park. Though a bit lower and a bit longer trail walking wise as from Mowich Lake it has the advantage that no car shuttle is required. Note the trail to Mystic Lake by the Whintropt Glacier - one does not go to Mystic Lake but goes most of the way to the Carbon Glacier then drops down onto the trail. http://www.nps.gov/mora/planyourvisit/upload/Carbon-River_Mowich-Area-Trails-Aug11.pdf

If the Mowich Road is closed my suggestion would be to walk in from Carbon Creek. While it too is approximately 5.5 miles it is an easy walk. From there you can get into Spray Park and camp. From there it is an quick jaunt to the Ptarmigan bivy. On the return descend the Emmons to Streamboat. From there drop down the Whintropt which is usually reasonable crack wise. Join the LR shuffle trail for a bit then down Curtis Ridge where one will hit the trail back to Ipsut Creek. Simple one car. I have down this in various forms for Ptarmigan, Mowich, and Willis.

http://www.nps.gov/mora/planyourvisit/road-status.htm If you are looking to do something over on the Mowich side go in via the West Side Road and go long, coming down via the DC. If Ptarmigan go in via White River and go long, coming down Emmons. One can also walk the Carbon River road - done that too. For Mowich/Ptarmigan come down the Emmons / Whintropt and pick up the trail going to Mystic Lake.