Baltoro

That makes a great point that a lot of people can't come to grips with that gear is not really made for "core" users. Everyone of course considers themselves to be "core" but to a lot of gear companies, "core" customers are brand new, and need to buy a lot of stuff, and they really don't need 3 layer Gore-Tex Pro bibs. GTX was not put into the outdoor industry for ski bums who probably bro-dealed the stuff in the first place. True "core" users can benefit from the products generated for the average consumer (like Gore-Tex, Schoeller, etc) but we shouldn't get too upset when the vast majority of products aren't "geared" towards us. Sorry but I couldn't help from inserting the cheesy "geared" pun.

Does that imply that Layton in bacon would rule even more?

I've got the Beal jokers and they don't wear that great, but I've seen worse. One nice option with those is to get a 70m with the middle mark. You can use it as a long single or have the second clip in as they would on a glacier with an alpine butterfly at the middle mark. This gives the leader two strands to tie into and since the rope is rated for double or twin rope use, you can use it as such, depending upon the terrain. Seconding on doubled lockers should be no big deal. Put a short strip of tape around one of the rope right next to the leaders tie in and treat this as the rope that always goes on the right hand side pro. This helps to keep you from confusing the ropes and cross clipping and creating extra drag. Not critical, but it can make life easier. You might go shorter though as often shorter is better, depending upon the route, pitch lengths and ability or inability to communicate. It's also less to carry in.

Bullshit its not often free climbed. Come out of your hole for a little light. Besides, I think there are two solid pins you can lower off of if you get in trouble. It always amazes me how quickly people get excited when things are anonymous. I'm sure we'd be perfectly friendly if we met in person. I've spent a fair amount of time at Index here and there, and from my personal experience, I've not often seen people on Iron Horse. Sag and JG, yes. Godzilla and Thin Fingers, most certainly. Princely and Rogers Corner; all the time. But I've not seen a whole lot of people free climbing on Iron Horse. You've probably spent much more time out there than I have and have seen others free climbing Iron Horse and perhaps have frequented it yourself. But like I said, I haven't. The thread has more or less nothing to do with the frequency of free climbing done on Iron Horse so I'll "crawl back into my hole" and return to my darkness, the conversation regarding anchor chopping can continue with out my "unenlightened" opinions and you can continue being the really nice guy that you clearly are. As for the two pins to lower off of, that was someone else's comment that they bailed onto this anchor because they couldn't firgure out the Iron Horse aid crux. I agree that you can lower off of the two pins and the anchor is most definitely not essential. Whether or not the anchor was relevant isn't the conversation we should be having after the fact. It's what should have been asked before the chopping. Like the anchor or not, you can't be excited about a person or persons going around and making decisions like these that effect the whole community without having a dialogue about it beforehand. Enjoy.

I too have used the midpoint anchor during aiding, if for nothing else, to practice belay changeovers for soloing, or to bail off in foul weather. At the very least, these anchors may help to keep newer aid climbers off of other more popular free climbs. Iron Horse is a very accessible aid route that is not often free climbed. Maybe without the anchor, those same climbers will not be as keen to jump on it, knowing they can bail partway if need be. It just seems like it wasn't really that benefitial to remove it. It's not like people were often using that anchor and tying up Sagitarious. Sigh.

The aid route below actually goes free at 11 something. It's Arachnid Arch but if you can deal with aiding that you should have no problem finishing up on Iron Horse to the Ringing Flake anchor, but at this rate, who knows how long that anchor will be there?! It's unfortunate that people are going against what appears to be a consensus, albiet not a unanimous consensus, to leave the JG anchor in place. I don't recall seeing any conversation as to the validity of this anchor, but we also shouldn't just assume that this was done by the same person. It does seem that if you feel strongly enough to remove them, you'd be willing to admit to the fact and accept critisism. It's seems to me that anchor chopping should go something like instant replay in the NFL. If the refs don't have a completely good and obvious reason to overturn a call, then it stands. If an anchor has been there since before time and it's got at least a few good reasons for keeping it, then it should stay. Like Dave had said, there's plenty of rock to be developed, even at very moderate grades for Index. Put some effort into something positive, be it scrubbing old stuff or maybe uncovering some new gems. Or go replace some of the old manky stuff that's lurking around.

The weather was fine on Saturday. A little humid and threats of rain but I never felt a drop. The lot was pretty full but only us and another couple of parties at the LTW. Lots of empty boat racks though. It seems the parking could become an issue there before too long. Anything we can do to keep climbers off the impact radar is a good thing. Ideas?

I was there on Saturday as well and I think walked out at the same time as you guys. It was great to see so many aid parties out, particularly given that is was pretty warm and dry for the most part. A group of two guys and two girls came through around noon and I figured they were headed to Godzilla or Thin Fingers but sure enough, the guys looked like they were in fact headed there and the girls stopped at City Park and started busting out the etriers! Not only good numbers of aid folks but girls too! And three soloists! Sounds like Green Drag-on had a proud ascent over the weekend as well. Score one for the aid bumblies!!

I just got an REI Aegis jacket that is appearently not available any longer (I tried to find one for my dad) but I imagine we'll see a new version for next year. It is 3 layer stretch Elements (REI's WB material) on the hood, shoulders, top of the arms and cuffs, as well as on the hips. The rest of the jacket is a very stretchy softshell material. It is basically an Alpha Comp Hoody that is actually lighter and way cheaper (retail $169). Granted the overall quality is nothing I'd imagine compared to Arc'Teryx but what is. The seams are all welded, reverse coil zippers, no pit zips. The hood could stand to be a bit bigger to accomodate a helmet but mine is a touch small on me and I think it's my fault, not the jackets. If you aren't in a hurry it might be worth waiting for. Or call the Seattle Flagship store at noon on a Saturday and have them track one down at a store on the other side of the country. If they pick up the phone! Enjoy!

Tradclimbguy I can fully appreciate that he was joking and I hope he understood this with my additional shameless beta request at the end. I don't know that I would define two requests (pitch length and base anchor) as "so many beta request posts" though. I was wondering if I could leave one rope out in the rain and nastiness for a day or two or if two ropes were needed. I was wondering if building an anchor at the base would take up any gear that for me might be crucial to the first pitch. Beyond that, I'm fine. Like I mentioned above, my time has become very precious to me (fulltime school, fulltime work, fulltime husband). I have to make the most of my time and if that means trading some of the adventure and the mystery of a route for the opportunity to get out and climb it, then so be it. I'm all for keeping the adventure in climbing but for me, soloing C2/3 in the winter is adventure enough, even having that little extra beta. Maybe I'm just being defensive because my wife gives me crap for reading guidebooks cover to cover, but so much of my climbing as of late has been mental, and rehearsing the logistics of actually climbing GDO solo will have to do until the weather cooperates with my availability. I'm fully prepared to take crap for beta requests from good intentioned people which it appears that everyone here is so far. So seriously now, what's the secret sequence to unlock the 4th class ledge at the top of the first pitch? Is it grass, mantle, moss or moss, moss, dyno, grass?

Hawkeye69 I wasn't psyched about making the approach to solo it if I was going to find one unslingable block at the base with little else. Time is rather precious to me as of late and I did not want to take a day up hiking with gear that I could have spent climbing something on the LTW. I'm sorry if my desperate attempt to find every conceivable piece of information about every square inch of stone had somehow interfered with the purity of your internet experience yesterday. I know it can be disturbing to be forced to hear shamelesss beta requests and stories, let alone acknowledge the existence of guidebooks or topos. If on the other hand, you are just joking and are seriously benefited by the anchor information, please complete an in-depth trip report with move by move beta, pitch length measurements and sun/shade timeframe. Thanks.

I totally agree with the quality of the route. The first time I got on it was after a quick rain and hail storm. We found that wall for cover and then figured we'd check it out since everything else was wet. I was disappointed to see the new guide book kind of trash it if I recall. I think it's a really neat route that is dramatically different than a lot of the other stuff at Smith (crimp, crimp, knob, crimp, crimp). We didn't know it was 11c/d as it wasn't even in the older guidebook we had. Good thing as we probably would have passed it by.

I'm not sure if I quoted the quote correctly or not but whatever. I'm implying that people seem to keep the climber tight and the rope at its shortest which on Heresy means standing basically directly under the bolt. Even if you aren't under the bolt, most belayers, if they have the rope super tight (which they shouldn't but do) get pulled off their feet and swing directly underneath the bolt where they meet the falling climber who is swinging in from the right. The ground there is not exactly level and I (250lbs.) get pulled off my feet if my partner (160lbs.) falls off. I have not stood directly under the bolt and I'm also not even belaying in the future, I'm spotting. Where do you propose the belayer should stand if you were going to keep the climber tight? It seems like until they get to the first bolt, there is no point in belaying them anyways. They're feet are only like 6' off the ground at that point anyways. Again, that's what the entourage* is for. Especially when it's now 11c/d which I'll gladly accept cause it feels that hard for me. *Traditionally you do not get an entourage until you climb V-hard, 5.many, drive the most reliable car or have a really big and shiny rack. I knew the first three were not possible for me so I went for the shiny rack, thus the entourage to fall o...err..spot me!

Heresy at Smith comes to mind. The first bolt is maybe 15ft. to the left of the start and only 9-10ft. off the ground. Routinely (maybve only when I climb it) people stick clip the first bolt, do the traverse rail thing with the belayer keeping them "nice and tight cause they're so close to the ground." The climber peels off the traverse and rockets directly into the belayer who gets pulled up tight, just off the ground making for a beautiful collision.I know this happens because I've done it before. "Doh!" If people don't stick clip and have the belayer spot them, you can avoid this. At the very least, don't take up slack until the climber is almost to that first bolt and spot them instead or have the entourage get off their asses and do something instead of taking up the trail and shouting "Sick Dude!" All that being said, I am a fan of stick clips having had bad ankle injuries in the past but be smart. Just because you're clipped to something above you doesn't mean you're totally safe either and this is an illusion of safety that stick clips might encourage. Vomit Launch also comes to mind. Sketchy to the first bolt with a nasty landing involving potentially tumbling back through the birthing canal. Model Worker comes to mind for a different reason. It's all draws and a gold(?) camalot at the end but good luck using a stick clip to get that first draw up there. That might be more impressive than the climb itself!

How about the "access chimney" on the far right side of the Great Northern Slab. I have yet to see someone get up that for the first time in anything resembling good style. I don't care if you climb in the .12's. That thing may be the most humbling thing at Index and that's saying something. Moderate is relative!

Knelson Were you refering to this page: http://www.rei.com/aboutrei/financials2005.pdf The one that shows a net income of 32,726,000. That's not exactly rolling in the dough for over 1 billion in sales. "Regarding growth - growth is not bad if done for the right reasons and it supports your mission. Right now, you've got a company that has changed their mission because they have to because of their growth." What exactly was their mission and how is it different today? cj001f What do you mean don't promise the fixed dividend? Has it not been 10% for quite awhile? Here in lies a problem if you're bringing up Mobutu Sese Seko in relation to a conversation about REI not being great anymore. Are you implying a comparison between REI and Mobutu Sese Seko? Is that a realsitic or fair because they don't do things like they used to?

Maybe becuase something to the tune of 80% of profits go out in people's dividends. It's not like Sally and friends are down there in Kent counting their billions. First there are taxes to pay. That figure is a sales figure from the register. Say for the sake of math it's 10%. Assume than that maybe half of their after tax sales are cost of product so now it is 450mil. Assume that half of the original sales were regular price stuff so people earn a dividend on it. So 50mil is going back to members. So you've got 400mil left over to run 80+ stores, pay 7000 employees, develop new technology, both product and otherwise, have your return policy abused and build a new 400K sq.ft. warehouse on the east coast to support all those people who want to buy over there as well but shouldn't be allowed because that's not fair. REI never should have left Capitol Hill because growth is bad and/or unethical and anyways, I'm sure they'd still be doing a booming business like the rest of the flourishing retail market on Capitol Hill. It is without a doubt not the most "pure" co-op structure, but it is also still in business. A co-op that is out of business can't serve it's members very well. You can argue that going out of business is better than doing what they're doing but I think that's taking it too far and your not likely to find any retailer that's going to take that high road. Didn't they also have some involvment in retaining the Peshastin area for public use? Support of bad rock doesn't mean that they're bad people.

Mr_Phil After confirming like all other retailers that the rest of the aliens were legit? I don't see your point there. Sure they sold through existing stock but they also sent a message to gear companies that if you don't have your sh!t together then we won't buy from you anymore. Selling through what you've got doesn't change that. We could probably have an entire forum for just REI bitch threads and we could all go back and forth forever. You guys have what you feel to be good points and reasons not to shop there and lots of people have what they feel are good reasons why they aren't so bad and they continue to shop there. There are certainly some legit issues but until teh consensus arguement goes beyond "it's not like it used to be..." then I don't have much sympathy. Shop somewhere else.

Try any one of these. I don't totally disagree with you guys but I think you're a little overboard on how bad a co-op this is. There's also the deal where REI will no longer buy from certain climbing manufacturers if they do not meet certain certification criteria (CCH). That's using industry influence to do good. 20% green power. That sets the bar for other industry leaders. Try and contact Kevin Hagen at REI corp. Ask him some questions. http://www.rei.com/aboutrei/gives02.html http://www.rei.com/aboutrei/cce.html http://www.rei.com/aboutrei/releases/04stewards.html http://www.rei.com/aboutrei/releases/04peak.html http://www.rei.com/aboutrei/table1.pdf

KNelson I wasn't making a jab at FF at all or saying that REI is better. I'm saying that they both serve totally different purposes and both benefit from one another. I realize FF has been doing their thing for quite some time but many shops have gone the way of the online only path and hopefully REI's presence has helped to keep FF from having to go down that route. Maybe so, maybe not. Like someone pointed out earlier, brick and mortar is expensive, websites are not. cj001f, a benefit might be that you can go in and fondle gear and try stuff on and waste all the time of the staff that you want if you can put up with being asked about membership fourteen times in a half an hour. Then go online and buy it from JoeBlowgear.com at a reduced cost. If you can't handle that then don't shop there. If you ever did shop there you probably went there for some reason. Obviously on that particular day there were benefits to going there rather than somewhere else or not shopping at all. It would be one thing if REI was destroying local economies or damaging entire industries a la Walmart but I just don't get why people get so worked up because REI doesn't carry hemp ropes and bongs ( big pitons not... well bongs).

I wouldn't say that FF and REI are really competing. If you think about it, neither of them can really provide the products and service that the other one provides and still be very successful. REI can't get the super gear intensive product people like FF can because a lot of these people don't want to talk about Nalgene bottles and Denali jackets (who does?). FF can't carry all the crap that REI does and still cater to the higher end climbing crowd. It is a symboitic relationship. I would imagine that both locations would not do as well if the other one was there. REI probably wouldn't notice it much but FF would deifinitely feel it. I wouldn't argue that FF is only able to stay in business due to the proximity to REI but it certainly doesn't hurt them. As for the questioning the need for growth, how many people were born with a harness on? Probably not many. The point is that we were all new to the outdoors at some point. We all tied in for the first time once and some people would have called you a noob or gumbie or whatever. All the growth does is get more people outside for the first time enjoying what we've grown to love or get people out more often and I don't see a problem with that. If they can make a buck (and stay in business) off soccer moms and mid-life crisis dads I don't have a problem with it. And I can guaruntee (sp?) you this: Fancy materials like Gtex, primaloft, schoeller, etc. are not made for hardcore outdoor users like all of us (ha) but they are made and marketed to soccer mom and crisis dad to be sold at REI. The return on investment is not enough. Quit bitching and enjoy the benefits. If REI has what you need and someone else doesn't, go there. If they don't, then don't. It's not that hard and certainly not as emotionally involved as some of you gys make it. My advice: get a hangboard and take out all your REI aggression on that. I'm sure you'll enjoy the benefits of that more than the affirming pat on the back by the other REI-bitchmasters.

Any advice out there for an anchor to solo the start of Green Drag-on? I remember some blocks at the base but don't recall if they were slingable or if I need to bring along some gear. Any thoughts?

I'm curious as to the pitch lengths, specifically the first two, on Green Drag-On. I mostly solo and as such am slow so this climb is a two day affair for me right now. I'd love to get the first two pitches fixed and ideally only subject one rope to inevitable drenching. So, does anyone know if one single strand 60m rope will reach the ground from the second belay station? I've been there before but we left gear on the ledge below and as such had to stop anyway. Any other helpful beta people want to throw out would be useful: linking pitches (soloing so no rope drag),critical gear, etc. , as I've only been up to the second pitch anchors. Thanks for any info that you can pass along.

I fell on my Jokers as twins and they worked. I fell on my Jokers as doubles and they worked. I don't fall on a Joker as a single. I apply the ice leading mentality. In all seriousness I am curious what you guys come up with. I foolishly took chemistry instead of physics and can barely follow your posts beyond the first line or two.

This translates to being able to buy wind generated power that is not cost effective in the short run and as such shareholders would be pissed. With no shareholders to piss off, REI is now 20% run on green power. Doesn't sound like a bad thing does it? Do you have any idea how much she could be making working for someone else? She makes crap with REI compared to her previous work. It's all well and good that you don't like REI or what they do but to call someone that is a little much simply because they don't carry the gear that you wouldn't buy there anyways! Move on!