Baltoro

Knelson Were you refering to this page: http://www.rei.com/aboutrei/financials2005.pdf The one that shows a net income of 32,726,000. That's not exactly rolling in the dough for over 1 billion in sales. "Regarding growth - growth is not bad if done for the right reasons and it supports your mission. Right now, you've got a company that has changed their mission because they have to because of their growth." What exactly was their mission and how is it different today? cj001f What do you mean don't promise the fixed dividend? Has it not been 10% for quite awhile? Here in lies a problem if you're bringing up Mobutu Sese Seko in relation to a conversation about REI not being great anymore. Are you implying a comparison between REI and Mobutu Sese Seko? Is that a realsitic or fair because they don't do things like they used to?

Maybe becuase something to the tune of 80% of profits go out in people's dividends. It's not like Sally and friends are down there in Kent counting their billions. First there are taxes to pay. That figure is a sales figure from the register. Say for the sake of math it's 10%. Assume than that maybe half of their after tax sales are cost of product so now it is 450mil. Assume that half of the original sales were regular price stuff so people earn a dividend on it. So 50mil is going back to members. So you've got 400mil left over to run 80+ stores, pay 7000 employees, develop new technology, both product and otherwise, have your return policy abused and build a new 400K sq.ft. warehouse on the east coast to support all those people who want to buy over there as well but shouldn't be allowed because that's not fair. REI never should have left Capitol Hill because growth is bad and/or unethical and anyways, I'm sure they'd still be doing a booming business like the rest of the flourishing retail market on Capitol Hill. It is without a doubt not the most "pure" co-op structure, but it is also still in business. A co-op that is out of business can't serve it's members very well. You can argue that going out of business is better than doing what they're doing but I think that's taking it too far and your not likely to find any retailer that's going to take that high road. Didn't they also have some involvment in retaining the Peshastin area for public use? Support of bad rock doesn't mean that they're bad people.

Mr_Phil After confirming like all other retailers that the rest of the aliens were legit? I don't see your point there. Sure they sold through existing stock but they also sent a message to gear companies that if you don't have your sh!t together then we won't buy from you anymore. Selling through what you've got doesn't change that. We could probably have an entire forum for just REI bitch threads and we could all go back and forth forever. You guys have what you feel to be good points and reasons not to shop there and lots of people have what they feel are good reasons why they aren't so bad and they continue to shop there. There are certainly some legit issues but until teh consensus arguement goes beyond "it's not like it used to be..." then I don't have much sympathy. Shop somewhere else.

Try any one of these. I don't totally disagree with you guys but I think you're a little overboard on how bad a co-op this is. There's also the deal where REI will no longer buy from certain climbing manufacturers if they do not meet certain certification criteria (CCH). That's using industry influence to do good. 20% green power. That sets the bar for other industry leaders. Try and contact Kevin Hagen at REI corp. Ask him some questions. http://www.rei.com/aboutrei/gives02.html http://www.rei.com/aboutrei/cce.html http://www.rei.com/aboutrei/releases/04stewards.html http://www.rei.com/aboutrei/releases/04peak.html http://www.rei.com/aboutrei/table1.pdf

KNelson I wasn't making a jab at FF at all or saying that REI is better. I'm saying that they both serve totally different purposes and both benefit from one another. I realize FF has been doing their thing for quite some time but many shops have gone the way of the online only path and hopefully REI's presence has helped to keep FF from having to go down that route. Maybe so, maybe not. Like someone pointed out earlier, brick and mortar is expensive, websites are not. cj001f, a benefit might be that you can go in and fondle gear and try stuff on and waste all the time of the staff that you want if you can put up with being asked about membership fourteen times in a half an hour. Then go online and buy it from JoeBlowgear.com at a reduced cost. If you can't handle that then don't shop there. If you ever did shop there you probably went there for some reason. Obviously on that particular day there were benefits to going there rather than somewhere else or not shopping at all. It would be one thing if REI was destroying local economies or damaging entire industries a la Walmart but I just don't get why people get so worked up because REI doesn't carry hemp ropes and bongs ( big pitons not... well bongs).

I wouldn't say that FF and REI are really competing. If you think about it, neither of them can really provide the products and service that the other one provides and still be very successful. REI can't get the super gear intensive product people like FF can because a lot of these people don't want to talk about Nalgene bottles and Denali jackets (who does?). FF can't carry all the crap that REI does and still cater to the higher end climbing crowd. It is a symboitic relationship. I would imagine that both locations would not do as well if the other one was there. REI probably wouldn't notice it much but FF would deifinitely feel it. I wouldn't argue that FF is only able to stay in business due to the proximity to REI but it certainly doesn't hurt them. As for the questioning the need for growth, how many people were born with a harness on? Probably not many. The point is that we were all new to the outdoors at some point. We all tied in for the first time once and some people would have called you a noob or gumbie or whatever. All the growth does is get more people outside for the first time enjoying what we've grown to love or get people out more often and I don't see a problem with that. If they can make a buck (and stay in business) off soccer moms and mid-life crisis dads I don't have a problem with it. And I can guaruntee (sp?) you this: Fancy materials like Gtex, primaloft, schoeller, etc. are not made for hardcore outdoor users like all of us (ha) but they are made and marketed to soccer mom and crisis dad to be sold at REI. The return on investment is not enough. Quit bitching and enjoy the benefits. If REI has what you need and someone else doesn't, go there. If they don't, then don't. It's not that hard and certainly not as emotionally involved as some of you gys make it. My advice: get a hangboard and take out all your REI aggression on that. I'm sure you'll enjoy the benefits of that more than the affirming pat on the back by the other REI-bitchmasters.

I too have a Marmot Alpinist Jkt that I'm looking to sell. This is 3 layer XCR Gtex, mns XL, in "electric blue", ooh, ahh. I'd like to get $100 for it as it is barely used but realistic offers will be entertained. This is a couple years newer than the other Alpinist that was posted awhile back. PM or email with offers or questions: dyomad at M S N . c o m

Any advice out there for an anchor to solo the start of Green Drag-on? I remember some blocks at the base but don't recall if they were slingable or if I need to bring along some gear. Any thoughts?

I'm curious as to the pitch lengths, specifically the first two, on Green Drag-On. I mostly solo and as such am slow so this climb is a two day affair for me right now. I'd love to get the first two pitches fixed and ideally only subject one rope to inevitable drenching. So, does anyone know if one single strand 60m rope will reach the ground from the second belay station? I've been there before but we left gear on the ledge below and as such had to stop anyway. Any other helpful beta people want to throw out would be useful: linking pitches (soloing so no rope drag),critical gear, etc. , as I've only been up to the second pitch anchors. Thanks for any info that you can pass along.

I fell on my Jokers as twins and they worked. I fell on my Jokers as doubles and they worked. I don't fall on a Joker as a single. I apply the ice leading mentality. In all seriousness I am curious what you guys come up with. I foolishly took chemistry instead of physics and can barely follow your posts beyond the first line or two.

This translates to being able to buy wind generated power that is not cost effective in the short run and as such shareholders would be pissed. With no shareholders to piss off, REI is now 20% run on green power. Doesn't sound like a bad thing does it? Do you have any idea how much she could be making working for someone else? She makes crap with REI compared to her previous work. It's all well and good that you don't like REI or what they do but to call someone that is a little much simply because they don't carry the gear that you wouldn't buy there anyways! Move on!

Great Pack. Sadly they no longer make it like this anymore. Is yours orange? I guess the material was way too spendy to keep that pack at a remotely reasonable pricepoint. I would have ordered three had I known how great it was. It always seems to be big enough and if I can't fit it all in there then I know I'm taking too much stuff.

I had a friend who was climbing with the climber who fell and he asked me to post these details: -The climber was traversing across the ledge between Reptiles and Aborigine. He lost his footing and his body was out away from the rock and he was not able to grab onto anything. -He was an "expert" climber. "Expert" is obviously open to interpretation but I consider myself capable of traversing that ledge and he is certainly a stronger and more experienced climber than myself. I use the term "expert", while having no relevence to his ability or inability to do one pinky pullups or crap like that, but to communicate that this was not some gumby stumbling around trying to set up top-ropes for his buddies. -911 was called immediately. -He never lost consciousness (sp.) and always had feeling in his extremities. -There was obvious swelling in the left elbow to indicate a broken arm or ligament injury which was later confirmed (broken arm). There was also lacerations and bruising. -He was treated for shock and climbers were with him until medical help arrived, which took about 1 hour. -He was placed onto a backboard which was put onto one of those fancy, one wheel gurney things and he was transported to Harborview. -He had no major injuries beyond the broken arm. Minor injuries were limited to bruising and cuts, one of which was on his head. -He is okay and recovering and feels bad for ruining his partner's day. -If anyone has specific questions about the accident, please PM me and I will do my best to find out more details. This accident was just that, an accident! They can happen to anyone who loses their focus for just a moment. As climbers, there are a great deal of things that are outside of our control (rockfall, icefall, weather, aging). We must recognize and accept these dangers and be doubly careful, but accidents can still happen. Be careful and climb safe!

I'm curious if the second pitch of Iron Horse will go on clean aid or not. I'm trying to find lots of clean aid options at the LTW and Iron Horse is a quick and eady setup for solo and without the same-old, same-old nutting of City Park. Variety is the spice of life and it looks like the second pitch of Iron Horse through the roof would be cool. Any alternatives would be great as well. Thanks for your time.

I aid soloed Iron Horse today to the Sagitarius bailout anchor to the right. I've been meaning to do this for quite awhile and never seem to have enough time or lack of a partner so today was the day. Time only allowed me to get to the Sagitarius anchor but I knew that going in. Car to car time was right around 3 hours which I was pleased with considering I took forever bulding my anchor. Actual time on the climb was pretty quick. The anchor is quite bomber with two cordalettes looped under the two big blocks and a 3/4" to 1" angle hand placed at the point directly under the start of the climb. I tied all that together with the tail of my tag line, clipped in a screamer for good measure and tied that into a couple of bomber nuts for downward pull. The climb itself could probably be done almost entirely on size 4-6 HB offsets. There are some good small cam placements but the HBs work great. I have a few BD C3s still on backorder so I just had the .1 and the 0. These were the only cams that I used and they were great. Also made my first solo leading cam hook moves to the right of the fixed pin. Great climb and in the shade too. Interestingly enough the only person I saw once I was climbing was another soloist, TRing Japanese Gardens. It was kind of nice having the whole place to ourselves and not having continual chatter between partners. Hopefully next week I can get out of work a little earlier or be due in at home later (bathroom remodeling)and get to the Ringing Flake anchor. Gear: BD stoppers HB Offsets a few small cams 1" angle and two cordalletes for the anchor

I've got a couple tents that just don't see too much action. They are both barely used except for a couple of nights of car camping each. The Talus is a 3 pole 2 person setup. Somwhere around 5lbs. or so. Not the lightest but cheap. The Marmot used to be considered 4 season but they call it "3 Season Extended" now. Make a reasonable offer if interested. Thanks.

Beware of the term softshell as nearly every other jacket is slapping the term softshell onto their name and calling it good. Take a look at any of Mtn. Hardwear's offerings which they'll tout as "nearly waterproof and would be if we could seal the seams" (Gore won't let them). To me that is a rain jacket that leaks, not a softshell. The idea of a softshell which I think was first worn by Moses on the first ascent of Mt. Sinai (it's been around for a long, long time), is to repel wind and snow but still breathe really well. Also, break down the name and you have soft and shell. Keep this in mind when looking at "softshells" that have a great deal of insulation. You have other layers for insulating. All I want from my softshell is for it to act as a shell, not as insulation as well, thus increasing it's breathability. Check out Arc'Teryx Gamma SV or Gamma MX. I'm not sure how much insulation these have as they no longer make the one I have, the Gamma LT. Do not get Windstopper in your softshell. These are just fancy fleece. Windstopper is also "sweatstopper" as you will not breathe through it nearly as well as you would through something made of just Schoeller or Powershield that uses the tight weave of the fabric as it's wind blocking layer instead of a laminate layer like Windstopper. Sorry for the rant, I just get tired of people getting "softshells" that are bastardized versions of what they should be. Hope this helps.

Black Diamond Vipers. One season's use. Viper Android leashes and Viper Fangs included. $240 obo. Even if you're not doing leashless, the Fangs are nice as they protect the pinkys quite a bit. PM me if interested. Thanks. Will ship for free in US as well. Thanks.

Very helpful info. Thanks.

Looking to head up the South Spur on Adams in early November and wondering about road conditions to the parking area at this time of year. I've never been on it. Do they plow and if so how far? ? Is 4wd needed? Any info you all can pass along would be great.

No worries there TimL. Thanks for the info on the other climb as well.

I agree in general. I didn't recall what the base of the climb was like and what sort of anchoring opportunities there was to offer. Obviously if there is a protectable crack to use then there is no need for bolts. Thanks for the info.

I thought I recently read something about Iron Horse having bolts but no hangers at the base. I searched to no avail. Does anyone have any insight into this. Thanks for your time.

I've got a BRAND NEW! C4 #2 camalot for sale as well as 3 barely, barely used DMM 4cu's, sizes 1.75, 1.5 and 1.25. I overbought on the C4's and have never really used the DMMs, now that I have more C4's. I'm trying to genereate cash for some small cams come next spring (BD,TCU,Aliens?) and would love to get these to a good home. I'd like to sell the DMM cams as a set for $60 and I'll ship for free in the US. The C4 I'd like to get $40 for and again I'll ship it free in the US. Please PM me if interested. Thanks.

I do. If anything PM me your gear needs as I've probably prodealed one and am ready to try something else out and can't sell my toy for more than I bought it for (cheap). And whenver I get to speak to our higher ups I ask them the same type of questions that you guys would. I got an email about compensation for our then top 5 employees before it went to the press becasue my manager's manager's manager's manager wanted me to know about it. Belive me, I give them hell. And I feel the same as you guys on a great deal of these issues and make my opinion felt, and REI feels the same on a lot of them also. Product training is a huge focus this year becasue we've lost a tremendous amount of credibility with our customers becasue there are too many people wearing a green vest who don't know what they're talking about. Will training fix that? No, but it'll help and that's all we can hope for. I'm by no means saying REI is the greatest. If you guys have questions you want asked then PM me and I'll do my best to get an answer. There is a pretty good open door flow of information without to much BS attached so I might be able to help you out. Again I'm not trying to have a pissing match here and I look forward to talking to you all if interested.