Kimmo

you're such a nationalist. have you been to this slab? have you witnessed first-hand this situation? and even if you had, would you be in a position to evaluate its possibilities for being climbed without bolts? nah, didn't think so.

and yes, the "unfettered economic man" that you sarcastically refer to played a role, with his unbridled optimism in the RE market.

Portraying the meltdown as an decontextualized, ideology-free alphabet soup is a great way to absolve the "greed is good", "unfettered economic man", "economic freedom uber alles" religion that lies at the heart of this disaster. agreed. i am not suggesting that the rest of the narrative be ignored (which should be obvious from the way i framed my comment), but the fact remains that unregulated over-leveraged investment (speculation), coupled with unregulated credit default swaps (shoulda been reg'd like insurance?), played a major role in the formation of the situation that- all would agree- collapsed to an extent.

i think much of the above is accurate, wthtout delving into the larger narrative. except for the implicit belief that the public "bureaucratic mechanisms" should be replaced with private bureaucratic mechanisms (masquerading as a benevolent financial over-seers of the public good).

can anyone tell me where the word "snorkel" comes from?

now now children....

from schnorchel, german for air intake. hmph.

i think i need a snorkel too. snorkel. now that's a fun word!

actually, climbing can be quite "complicated"; that's part of its appeal to me. as far as it being an "art"....i kinda think it is what we make of it. marc could make it routine, like "taking out the trash", or he could put some imagination into it, and have it be something a little more. i guess i kinda feel badly for you that something you've done for so long is nothing more than "taking out the trash" (although even taking out the trash has the potential for being art).

modern crag with modern ethics. that's kinda funny! are you suggesting marc enslave himself to this "modern crag" with its "modern ethics"? sounds kinda like dwayner. but in reverse.

ok, 15 years then. does it change the equation much?

wow cramer, unexpected! i guess i now know what climbing has been for you all these years.... coulda saved yourself a lot of trouble by staying home and taking care of the domestic duties, like taking out the trash.

pretty good advice, i'd say. i would add one caveat: even if you get a ringing endorsement for bolting the thing, at least consider alternatives. this might be your chance to be a rebel, a trend-setter. look at what sonnie is doing in your neck of the woods. and remember: you don't have to dumb it down for the masses. climbing is an equal opportunity game: anyone can step up to the plate. but part of what makes it fun is the challenge. you can potentially offer up a challenge that will deeply inspire someone in the future (simply bolting up another slab will probably never do this).

never say never. all i'm suggesting is that before he commit drill to rock, consider the possibilities. be creative. really spend some time thinking about other options. that's all. especially if it's a "gem" of a climb. gems have been absolutely ruined at index and other places because of overzealous bolters after all, he calls himself a traddie!

i am beginning to think that climbing isn't much of a creative endeavor for you....

and your point is that, based on his description (which obviously does not tell anyone enough about potential creative pro being available) you will rush to judgement about the need for bolts?

tell that to marc, since he was the one soliciting advice about climbing something in a "pure style".

it's kinda funny that no one is even asking if there is natural pro available. i'm the sporto here, but maybe pope and dwayner are right....

and contrary to what some might say, tape is ok.

make sure the hooks have long runners so they don't get pulled out by tension on the rope.

try trad protection, a la hard grit climbing. sounds like the purest approach. taped-on hooks.

As if the race to the bottom labor cost and the flight/destruction of legacy jobs hadn't been enabled by widespread deregulation and consolidations into oligopolies. we need specifics. i think they are there, and it makes your case stronger.

A helpful and civil response. Thanks. My modest $$ are on the way.

dude, this is better than a bong toke anyday.

sir, i do believe there are elements in our current approach that need review. i wished simply to make sure that you weren't in favor of allowing hand-guns and osama bin laden on airplanes, without the necessary back-ground checks. i am quite sure i was not erecting a straw-man, no matter how it may have appeared to you, sir.