JosephH

Seek electroshock treatments and thorazine if you think Obama created any of these situations. Seek a straight jacket and other appropriate restraints if your think McCain and Palin would have handled any of this inherited bullshit any better than Obama.

Ok then, this amazingly makes it four people who don't know the difference between rebolting and retrobolting. Would anyone else like to make it five? Because maybe there would be some comfort and consolation in numbers. So far Kenny and Steve have testified they can't tell any difference in the experience of climbing the route. Anyone out there who has climbed it this year and feels it climbs differently in any substantial way due to being rebolted?

Your president:

Oh, while we're at it, not three weeks ago Jim explicitly stated that the anchor for rapping into LoLP was "perfect" and "shouldn't be fucked with", and not a week or so later one of you pudknockers slapped a third fatty in there, unrigged the ring pin, and re-webbed the whole affair. So which one of you guys did the deed against Jim's explicit wishes and where are the howls of righteous indignation and moral outrage over it? [ P.S. Maybe next time just replace the two suck bolts rather than slam a fatty in third; and you might also want go back up there and melt the ends of those slings... ]

Hmmm, maybe you missed this upthread:

Ok, at this point it's really getting to look like an impairment or special ed sort of deal... So, just so I get this straight now that you've gone on the record here. You are castigating me for retrobolting YW - which I did not do - and in the same breath lamenting the fact you wish YW could have been retrobolted to your liking (wtf, didn't you read the part where every bolt is perfect). In other words, I didn't retrobolt it, but you explicitly wish it had been. Well, my friend, you just voted that the experience of clipping at least that bolt is completely unaltered from before - the very definition of rebolting. Yep, my tally for drilling protection bolts stands an unparalleled and staggeringly ruffian count of - one - in thirty six years.

It that's the criteria then if you voted for W you should have beaten yourself to death by now.

Actually, before he hurt his knee he was going to come out with me when I did it so he could look at each bolt. What he said is 'the bolts are fine' and 'they can't [ever] be replaced without screwing up the climb because each one is in the perfect place'. But the reality was the bolts sucked and after the bolts blew up at Index I have no regrets whatsoever replacing them. Both of his reasons why the bolts couldn't be replace are entirely bogus. Again, climbed the route this season? Yes? No? How did it climb? Funny how we've been open for awhile and noone who climbed it has said shit about. In your case, I do know your name and you definitely might as well be pissing on your keyboard and monitor.

Looks like Brooke and company's route on Prusik

Sigh. Let's see, that's now three of you who don't seem to know what retrobolting means. So, have you climbed YW this season? Yes? No? Oh, and if you had a name you'd at least stand some chance I'd give a wit about what you think; as it is you might as well be pissing on your keyboard and monitor.

Bummer I can't get out there today as I'm feeling particularly scummy and villainous here at work.

[Sorry, meant as a reply to Bill, not Mr. Hands] The rock on most of p1 and lower p2 of YW is too soft to try and pull the old bolts without destroying the rock, I know, I tried to reuse those exact holes and stopped. Again, two of the bolts we're ok for another couple of years, the rest popped right off with less than a full turn of the wrench and had cross-sections that sucked as bad as I thought they would. They're now 1/2" SS in virtually the same locations they were in for climbing purposes, all went in at a known year, and will last long past the time anyone arguing here will ever give a shit. As I said, get on the route and let me know how it's any different at all to climb. I'd love to hear given my objective was to insure there wasn't any difference. Again, if I were retrobolting it half the bolts on p1 would be gone.

How so? Again, no bolt got added, removed, or moved - it was rebolted in place exactly as it was. So, how is it exactly you take the fanciful flight from that to retrobolting Winter Delight? It's quite amazing that somehow the distinction between the two is lost on several of you. P.S. If I had been retrobolting it you'd know because the half of the p1 bolts that are completely unnecessary would be gone now.

If I were adding, removing or moving a bolt on YW or any other route then I'd be following the FA's wishes. But not rebolting bad bolts in the face of these comments: Sorry, all bets were off in the face of that sort of nonsense. Again, the route and the experience of climbing it is completely unaltered from the rebolting - go climb it and tell me otherwise. Rock fall blasting the hand rail off of the top of the p3 crux changed the experience of climbing the route; Jim, Bill and I trundling a ton or two of former holds off of the top of p1 changed it substantially; and folks muscling off a few holds here and there sure did as well - but my rebolting it, not at all. If anyone thinks otherwise then climb it and post up how the experience has changed. Otherwise, it just got new 1/2" SS bolts that will still be pristine when the whiners among you are bitching in your deathbed.

I would say your comments are always welcome, but I wouldn't want to taint you in the process.

You clearly aren't familiar with the prince of the fine whine...

Coming from someone who is definitely too busy looking for his baseball to do anything but bitch, I'll take that as a high complement.

Other than actually doing something, I'm no more 'empowered' than you or anyone else. And nothing is happening out there randomly, bad anchors have simply been replaced. The latter doesn't happen without the former. The route wasn't modified. As stated before that would be 'retrobolting'. The route has been modified several times over the last five years by rockfall and people tearing holds off, but that's it. Hey, pull out your keyboard and start misrepresenting the facts, shit-talking my way, or taking conversations negative and you're likely to get what you get. No entitlement involved. You want to take a shot at getting the closure lifted or modified? Have at it. Clean out one of the column routes? Very cool! I have a tool set just for that you're welcome to use. An anchor, pin, or bolt needs replacing? I have plenty of hangars, bolts, pins, rings, and slings available for you to use and a drill and hammer if you need one. Trash needs to be picked up? Pick it up and haul it out. Big, bad loose rock juju somewhere? Sort out a strategy for dealing with it safely with the BRSP. Need any help doing any of the above? Pm me here, I'm up for it. Bitch and whine like a little cyber girl and do nothing? You're on your own.

Good luck with that, for sure. I'm a stepfather and we purposefully stayed in PDX so my stepdaughter could grow up near her father. I can't imagine anyone thinking separating that bond could somehow be good for a child. More power to you.

Kenny, 'rebolting' lacks the 'tro' that would redefine it as 'retrobolting'. The difference between the two could only be considered subtle under some pretty special circumstances. perhaps, but only in a special understanding of it all. you did "re(tro)bolt" YW, though, Well, who could have anticipated? Apparently you actually don't know the difference between retrobolting and rebolting. Ok then, cool, but I think someone else is going to have to help you out with understanding the difference. Hmmm, almost hard to respond to a statement this convoluted, but what the hell, it's cc.com, so let's just jump in there with both feet. Now, questions of just how apropos the Internet is for discussing Jim's ideas and remembrances aside, I'll just assume you're misquoting whatever he actually did say. First off, the bolts on YW were/are in horrible shape and needed to be replaced. I let Jim know what I had in mind, to which he replied, in effect, every bolt on the route was in perfect shape and wouldn't need replacing and could never be replaced without screwing up the route because every bolt was in the 'perfect' spot. You may or may not forgive me, but I took those statements to be a bit laden with hyperbole, and so offered to do it with him so he could look at the condition of each bolt himself. We were lined up to do that before he hurt his knee. But it was a task I had set myself to get done last year as lugging all that shit around is better done at the end of the season than the start of it, and I did in fact go ahead with the replacements once I found out he was out of commission for the foreseeable future. Of the p1 and p2 bolts I replaced, two were solid and probably would have gone another five years, the rest were shot. The bolts were not 'moved' other than to provide a minimal distance from the previous hole. So, that's what actually went down; but let's be clear, under no circumstances, or at anytime, have I ever told anyone that "Jim said it was ok" But hey, there are no shortage of folks who have climbed the route since those bolts were swapped out and they are all welcome to chime in here with their statements about how the route climbs differently at all or "how it is all fucked up now". Please, would love to hear those comments. Maybe start with you given you said you just climbed it - how did the rebolting degrade your experience on those pitches? P.S. Oh, and I also fixed the loose bolt on the p4 crux, feel free to comment on the trouble with that decision as well.

Now that you mention it, I gave Cartier a belay on it last year or the year before and I believe he was saying at the time that the start seemed a bit spicer than he recalled from the time he had last done it - probably because that pin never got put back in. Bottom line with angles is that between the back of the spine and the edge of the flanges they just have too little material in actual contact with the rock to really last reliably over the long haul.

Kenny, 'rebolting' lacks the 'tro' that would redefine it as 'retrobolting'. The difference between the two could only be considered subtle under some pretty special circumstances.

There was a pin buried [very] low on RR that had been completely overgrown by a big hump of moss. It's there and reset, but as I said quite low. If Arent pulled one from higher up on the approach it would have been nice to know that so it could have been replaced and just not had the bolt in/out episode. If Arent knows where he pulled it from he or someone else should put one back, or I'd be happy to go out with him and see if we can figure out where it came from and replace it. RR is really the only 'attractive nuisance' of a line out there and then really only because of the rating / stars Olson gave it in PRC. [ EDIT: NEVERMIND, I at first thought you were still talking RR, but I see you were actually talking about that pin on BSS, my bad. I thought Arent replaced that angle awhile back, or did he decide it was a placement that take pro well enough? ]

Only if you don't know anything about pins or how well the bolts at Beacon have performed. Then don't be so damn clueless in jumping to wishful conclusions and denigrating those guys' free climbing abilities without talking to them - all the free climbing they did at Beacon was on lines whose fixed protection is virtually unaltered today from when they did them. Anyone suggesting otherwise is completely full of shit and has no idea what they're talking about. There is no way to do what you said you wanted to do without retrobolting. And hey, re-read my first response to your post about the issue and you'll see nothing about it was negative - I simply stated my opinion on the matter and then you immediately took, and continue to take, this conversation negative. Sure, once I'm back in shape to actually get up it. As it stands now I've only been out for one day of non-maintenance climbing and was violently ill that day as it turned out. Check back with me sometime next month if that's what you want to climb and that will be fine.

Probably Ozone. If dropzone, it was likely a practice as those guys have been onto the place since they hauled Stewart out of there.