JosephH

Still, there seems to be at least a bit of a contradiction in the desire and the statement. If the route was put up and has subsequently done with the cam placement then it hardly seems like 'traffic' is a good enough reason to add a bolt. In fact, comfortizing / chicken-bolting for the masses really only ends up lowering people's skills overall, not raising them those of people capable of rising to the occasion. Chicken-bolting The Oracle has taken one of the very best and boldest leads in the PDX area and reduced it to just another climb to tick which is a real shame.

Dropzone was perfect and cool Saturday with the east winds blowing. Sunday the the temps had equalized and there was zero wind - doable, but way less than ideal.

My father flew the civilian version for United and was not overly fond of it or the DC-6 which was kind of raining out of the sky in the 50s. They called my mother shortly after I was born and told her he had gone down in one (a 6), but it turned out to be a different flight and crew. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_Douglas_DC-4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_Douglas_DC-6

You should post this TR up on supertopo...

No need - it was Drop Zone, it remains Drop Zone, it will always be Drop Zone.

In case folks hadn't heard, Eric Klimt has passed in a fall from Moonlight Buttress. Shot of him on Stone Rodeo from the day it got rebolted in Oct. 2010. http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2780251/Fatality-on-Moonlight-Buttress

Actually, my answers are the only straight answers to be had here about Beacon with respect to the closure. That's because you guys ALWAYS start with the end premise and belief that there is no legal or legitimate basis for the closure and have repeatedly attempted to bulldog your way backwards from there searching for anything and anyone to support your position - a position which has never changed from 1996 to today. And because you start with that end in mind you are constantly twisting every single aspect of any discussion of the closure to fit your incontestable and unshakable preset belief. And at every turn you've shown again and again that it's all us versus them, we're victims, they're the oppressive 'man' and that's the way it has to be. And until Bill stepped up a couple of months ago all of your actions have been adversarial and publicly dishonest with respect to what you really believe. Seriously? I mean FUCKING SERIOUSLY? I was the moderate local who finally decided to dig into the whole closure business after a listening to a decade of endless and ceaseless whining. I did speak up and I did get active. I put on my objective journalist hat and interviewed every single human involved with the '96 closure. I started to learn the laws, policy and the biology around the peregrines and the closure. I then tried to convince the lot of you that the only way forward was to learn to monitor, learn the law and policy and to re-establish a trusted working relationships with the BRSP, WSP and WDFW. That only after those relationships were mended and trust restored could the topic of the closure even be reasonably broached. The result? Complete and utter rejection of the very idea on all fronts. Opdycke would have absolutely none of it and you guys swallowed his whole us vs. them spiel hook-line-and-sinker as a frigging identity / anthem and have been parroting that party line ever since, year in, year out. It wasn't till Adam came along who was naive to the issues and history that you guys used him to make your big BRCA push with ONE, SINGULAR INTENT IN MIND to be pursued at any and all cost. The result - a completely adversarial push focused 110% on the closure. The outcome - predictable as rain in Oregon - you continually pissed off the very people who would have to say yes to any change in the closure. And moderates - dude, like fucking dude - MODERATES??? You and your bros ARE the extreme: a) totally impervious to reason, b) unwilling to give up your victim status, c) unwilling to learn the law, policy, people, monitoring or biology. Fucking hell, you wouldn't know a frigging moderate if one fell on you. My foul attitude comes from a decade of dealing with you clowns and having to suffer through watching you shooting yourselves in the foot again and again and wondering why nothing changes. That, and your basic slander and lies directed my way and also from understanding that what you folks say in public and what you really believe are about as close together as the Earth and Mars - disingenuous, dishonest and not fooling a single person who matters relative to the closure. And even in this posting here you are still starting with your unswerving and never changing position on the closure. It's always the same deal - we just have to find the right front man, the right organization, the right scientist, the right legislator, or the right committee to convince those frigging assholes just how seriously wrong they are and how incredibly unfair it all is. I.E. - nothing whatsoever has changed other than now instead of me or Adam, you have Bill on the hot seat. All the best to him given you folks haven't changed your minds, attitudes or beliefs one frigging shred and never will. And good luck with all that, because it's going to be the same loser CC discussion over the anguish of the 2025 seasonal closure if you keep on keep on the way you have been and are going. [ P.S. And yep, SALES AND POLITICS 101: DON'T ENDLESSLY PISS OFF THE VERY PEOPLE YOU NEED TO SAY YES - it just doesn't get simpler than that and if that's going over your head or otherwise fails to sink in then you're too fucking stupid for words. ]

My driving concern all along - but when all you do is shit talk the people and the process this will be the result every single time. Politics and Sales 101 / Politics for idiots. You have an incredibly poor grasp of the word 'legal' for a guy married to a lawyer as long as you've been.

Cool, just what Oregon needed - more bad rock. Great for canyoneering types, though.

Yep, he had a daisy chain girth hitched to the belay loop that wore through the belay loop. He went to go on rappel and the belay loop snapped. The issue with the girth hitching of the PAS to the belay loop was it meant all the abrasion on the belay loop happened in the same spot because the loop couldn't randomly rotate when the PAS was loaded. That was particularly problematic in his case because it was an ultralight harness so it wasn't an especially burly belay loop. Hey, it's fine to wonder why things are done the way they are but beginning and intermediate climbers should refrain from 'innovating' or adopting practices they see which are 'novel' and/or uncommon in any way.

Definitely the way to go, Bill. I had a hauling 8mm fixed there when I was doing the Upper Grassy Ledges anchor replacements. It's for sure the cleanest way off Grassy Ledges. Maybe replace the short safety line on the little Flying Dutchman ledge while you're at it. Also, the rap down Crankenstein just to the left of it is the only clean litter rap point off of Grassy Ledges that's a straight shot to the ground with no obstructions.

Yep, way better him than me all the way around given if it had been me there would have to be another hundred posts of outrage and then shit, you'd be overworked from all the photoshopping.

Bill, great job. Thanks for putting in the time and energy.

Bump. Hopefully she got some help in finding him...

Ever helpful. But then that's already the default.

Careful who you colonize; reverse colonization is a bitch.

Ivan, I'm with you relative to closing the South Face just because SAR doesn't have access. Partly in principle and partly because I don't at the moment have a ton of faith in the local SARs ability to operate safely at Beacon. But, again, all the more reason to be actively engaged with the WSP in an on-going working relationship to help inform their policies, views, and personal opinions / biases. Steve, that's a laudable idea, but there's way, way more to it than one might imagine. It would require a good working relationship with the WSP, sheriff, and fire dept. and it would take a ton of time [away from climbing] just to get certified in that fairly insular world. I think locals acting as vertical adjuncts / guides would probably make more sense, but even that would require establishing a formal and trusted working relationship with the SAR group. And upfront here let me say I've been involved with a few rescues and encountered quite a few local SARs around the country over the decades, including multiple encounters with Rocky Mountain Rescue, and those experiences have almost uniformly left me with a less-than-positive impression of them on the whole relative to vertical work (YOSAR, being climber-involved, is an exception to that). My main complaint being vertical SAR rescues typically involve an inordinate number of very unqualified people who have no business being there when a half-dozen well-qualified people would more than suffice to get the job done and limit the potential for further accidents. But unfortunately the SAR flash mob thing is an endemic aspect of their volunteer / social culture. And the whole SAR deal at Beacon is complicated. When Erik was here I reached out to those guys in an attempt to assess their vertical capabilities at Beacon (as opposed to say a Hamilton rescue) and to propose taking one or two of them on a tour of the available down-routes and anchors which could be useful in a rescue. I met with them briefly once, but that was as far as it went. Again, it's a fairly insular group who pride themselves on their professionalism and skills and my [repeated] impression is they are seldom amenable to outside help or suggestion (however much in need of it they may actually be). I reached out because Beacon represents some special challenges in this regard. For instance, one of us getting from the tourist trail to rap points may seem trivial, but it's not, and especially so for people unfamiliar with the various down-routes / ledge systems and attempting to bring down a lot of gear and a litter. Doubly so if it were dark and / or any weather set in. All in all, Beacon is a dangerous place for the uninitiated to be wandering about up on the ledges attempting to figure out how to get to a victim and I include SAR in that statement. Another issue is, in a typical SAR response at a place like Beacon, some folks would go in from the top and a raft of other people would take the trail to the base until they were under the accident scene. That's highly problematic at Beacon because of the high potential for the upper SAR crew to end up dislodging rocks onto those below ( and this is also one of the reasons I've always advocated a pre-open survey and cleaning of as much loose rock as possible). Those are just a couple of several problematic issues with SAR conducting vertical operations at Beacon, but to address any of them locals would have to be formally organized, establish honest, trusted working relationships with multiple agencies which would take years to develop at this point even if folks didn't have serious problems with 'the man'.

I didn't say I was ok with it; I said I can understand where they might be coming from and the concerns which are likely driving the decision. Big difference. Also, the past (and present) history of climbers and the closure you mention likely plays into the decision - i.e. if they can't trust climbers to respect the closure under normal circumstances, exactly what alternatives do you think they feel they have under extenuating ones? Wanna change things? Well, you can't dictate change and there's no effective external leverage so, if you're serious, then there's just no avoiding having a relationship with the folks who can make shit happen. Otherwise, you're just another pain point to be managed instead of a resource that can be reached out to when shit comes up. And if folks aren't interested in that it's cool, but then bitching about shit here, while satisfying, is about as useful as head-banging the base of of FFS. And at this point it's on you guys one way or the other as I'm just climbing and if Bill is crazy enough to get in the middle of it all then I'd suggest backing and trusting him. That's my favorite part as well and what I like about Beacon: it hasn't been totally pussified yet like everywhere else.

by this logic, they should have been doing this for the past 15 years though - if there's been any trouble over the years w/ folks on the hiking trail during a closure it's not been climbers, but tourists who figured out how easy it is to pass the gate Aside from the fact that statement isn't true, lets not get carried away as this isn't a generalized case, rather it's strictly about people on the trail while it's hammered and obstructed with guard rails down and them trying to sort it out and work to get it back open. I get it you're being deprived your romp, but seriously, I mean if you can't get their perspective after seeing that picture then I honestly don't know what to say other than there is essentially no situation or circumstance where you'll acknowledge they may feel they have a valid reason for your being denied.

P.S. that's a hell of an anchor in that promo photo for Mark's talk.

You? A kidder? It can't be... It should also be noted that Mark and Max were one of the earliest driving forces for free climbing on El Cap which has made his recent aid renaissance all the more interesting. All his posts on prepping for that first aid climb in decades and the resulting TR are still up on supertopo and make an interesting read as well. Tons of 'how to' stuff. He also has more of them on MP. Worth going through his old posts on both if you're interested in aid as he goes into some pretty significant detail in those old posts.

Unfortunately, it's not all about just us. I mean is the SE Corner that hard you need a big wall rack, eight hours, and arrows scratched in the rock for your second? In short, yeah, never underestimate the ability of people to fuck up even the simple things, especially when they're not simple to them. Offhand, I would guess that's the 'reasonable concern' that's driving the current closure - that, one way or another, someone will try to come down the tourist trail. By closing it they can just focus on the shit they need to get done without worrying about yet another thing given they're way shorthanded as is. That may not sound like a 'reasonable concern' to you, but again, they don't manage the place just for locals who know what they're doing, they have to manage it for anyone who might decide to show up, however competent or clueless. I know everyone wants to get back on the rock, but the whole park has sustained widespread damage, they have a third of the bodies and a fraction of the budget to deal with it all. Cut them some slack or don't, but you don't do yourselves any favors by not at least trying to figure out where they're coming from in a situation like this. It's also a stretch to hope that pulling an 'unfair' or 'victim' sympathy card is going to get much traction with 'dem fucking cocksuckas'.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm a big booster of Darwin and would have no problem if there were about half as many 'climbers' in the world tomorrow. The issue, though, is more about trying to figure out where 'they' might be coming from and what concerns might be driving their decision-making from so Bill et al can engage them on some basis slightly more constructive than 'fuck those cocksuckers'. [ P.S. Why is it every time I get to the base of the business to do Little Wing I always have to stop for a second because for a fleeting instance I can't shake the image of some grinning fool half way up it free soloing? It's beginning to really bug me. ]

It's possible they have some concerns that less than experienced climbers or people not as familiar with the rock may feel the need to come down the tourist trail, or that folks who end up on top without a rope and can't rappel might feel similarly inclined. And, given its current condition, it's not a stretch to guess they might not want people on the trail at this point regardless of which way they're coming from.

Oh, I get it all too well and, despite what the crew may think of me, I'm pretty sure there's little question among them about which one of us needs to be taking his meds. I mean, dude, you even scare them.