korup

Climbing in something like the Scarpa Laser is 100% better than skiing in Koflachs.

choochoo! choochoo! It's the LUV train!

Dugga- in spite of CCH's efforts to improve their QC, I think that their operation is a joke, and remain totally skeptical of their product. Yes, Aliens are sweet, but given the number of recalls, and production errors, I think my life is more important. Others prob. disagree, but....

I should restate. Obviously, in a rescue situation, I would use anything at hand and feel fine about it. However, my friend says he was told that this was the normal and correct way to do it. Dyneema runners are slippery, melt (think of a wet rope with sand/gravel) and are simply not a good choice if other options are available, safer, and ahem, cheaper.

A friend, (semi-newbie climber) went to a climbing shop in Seattle (and not the big box) and was told by a salesperson that it is A-OK to use skinny Specta/Dyneema runners as prusiks. OK, so before I head in there and go apeshit about melting point and the FACT THAT THEY AREN'T EVEN ROUND, is there any chance there is new info out there I am not aware of?

One day in Rocky Mtn NP, parter and I were hauling ass off a ridge line to avoid the monster thunderstorms that come off the plains every afternoon in the summer. We run into a dumpy tourist couple heading UPHILL wearing tshirts, two small kids in tow. "You might want to head down- the mother of all thunderstorms is headed this way." The dad freaks out, starts yelling at us that he knows what he is doing, and we can feck off. So, off we went, and 10 minutes later the sky went purple-black and 1/2" hail stones started flying- no news in the paper, so it must have turned out OK for them.

No, nobody ever carries three. That's the compromise. For anything steep you are carrying tools, so you just use the adze tool as a std mtneering axe, and suck up the shortcomings.

Ice tools are *really* marginal for self arresting. You lose a lot of leverage with a short shaft, and a technical pick isn't optimized for it like on a normal mtneering axe. People do it all the time (if you are carrying one anyway, etc etc) but it really is a big compromise.

Considering how nasty the weather at sea level was last night, it must have been horrific at 9500 ft. Best wishes for the survivors.

were you skiing without brakes or leashes? I use a setup like this one: http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62630 I have also had cases where the toe looked like it locked, but wasn't. Best way to check is to click in, lock into touring mode, and pivot the ski up and down a few times, hard. This cleans any snow/ice out of the toe holes. This should keep anything from happening again. Hope your ski turns up.

Yup, it might work, and then what? Then you are totally hosed for any type of hauling, jugging, etc etc, which means you'd need to carry a second rope. I can imagine some variant of a Kiwi coil with knots on the inside, but you'd need to lower the free end down anyway, making a total nightmare of a rope system.

Thanks for the numbers and confirmation that the system wasn't too far from real world scenarios. Take home message- vertical pickets in spring snow = totally psychological pro.

Petzl has one; maybe more accurate? http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportConseils?Conseil=56&Activite=14

(Repost from picket thread). Question- any physics geeky types want to guesstimate some force numbers? Coeffecient friction for snow ranges from 0.05 to 0.6, Ptex is very low, I weigh 90 kilos, and ?? At Alpental a friend and I did some on-snow picket testing with skis. All the tests were done with a 24" MSR Coyote (no cable, just runners), a 10.5mm rope, and the rope was (unrealistically) tied directly to the anchor. Snow conditions were 3-4" of wet corn/slush, and then more consolidated snow below that, on a slope (Sessel) of 15-20 degrees. Speed at impact with anchor felt like ~25 mph(?). Test 1: Vertical placement, top clip, hammered straight into the snow. Skied 30m of rope. Slight tug on harness, followed by explosive anchor failure, with picket landing ~10 feet from where I stopped downslope, pulling the entire coiled rope with it. FAIL. Test 2: Vertical placement, top clip, ~15 degrees back from horizontal, placed below slush level. Skied 15m of rope, with the same results as above. FAIL. Test 3: Vertical placement, middle ("Sierra" style) clip, ~15 degrees from horizontal, below slush level. A slot for the runner was excavated, and then snow was replaced and compacted. Skied 15m of rope. FAIL. Test 4: Horizontal "deadman" placement, ~2' down, with a trench for runner. 15m of rope skied. Anchor INTACT. I don't have any way to easily estimate the forces involved, but might sacrifice a Screamer if I do it again. The forces were all directed down, and should have pulled the anchor deeper in the snowpack, but they simply ripped straight out through the slope.

The plan right now is to be there from July 10-14, set up camp in the Ptarmigan / Lemon Creek area, and then run long day trips out onto the Icefield. A multiday traverse would be great fun, but I think the logistics from Skagway and vacation constraints might make it tough. Any suggestions for other tours?

Tonight at Alpental a friend and I did some on-snow picket testing with skis. All the tests were done with a 24" MSR Coyote (no cable, just runners), a 10.5mm rope, and the rope was (unrealistically) tied directly to the anchor. Snow conditions were 3-4" of wet corn/slush, and then more consolidated snow below that, on a slope (Sessel) of 15-20 degrees. Speed at impact with anchor felt like ~25 mph(?). Test 1: Vertical placement, top clip, hammered straight into the snow. Skied 30m of rope. Slight tug on harness, followed by explosive anchor failure, with picket landing ~10 feet from where I stopped downslope, pulling the entire coiled rope with it. FAIL. Test 2: Vertical placement, top clip, ~15 degrees back from horizontal, placed below slush level. Skied 15m of rope, with the same results as above. FAIL. Test 3: Vertical placement, middle ("Sierra" style) clip, ~15 degrees from horizontal, below slush level. A slot for the runner was excavated, and then snow was replaced and compacted. Skied 15m of rope. FAIL. Test 4: Horizontal "deadman" placement, ~2' down, with a trench for runner. 15m of rope skied. Anchor INTACT. I don't have any way to easily estimate the forces involved, but might sacrifice a Screamer if I do it again. The forces were all directed down, and should have pulled the anchor deeper in the snowpack, but they simply ripped straight out through the slope.

From the above article, "We often see climbers just sitting in the snow and belaying off their waist, with a snow stake behind them as a back-up anchor. What they are really doing is acting as a “deadman” themselves, literally turning into one when things go wrong." I am referring mostly to rescue anchors, as three point deadmen are not exactly fast to put together. However, 500 lb is a joke, and could *easily* be generated under lots of scenarios. Having broken a micro stopper under body weight via an unexplained mechanism, I have a healthy respect for the fact that anchors are often far more complicated than we think, especially with snow and ice.

The problem with in-line or a main and then backups, is that once the first one fails, you've excavated the whole snow wedge in front, and the rear anchors are now totally worthless, if I understand the pdfs correctly.

For a full placed vertical picket clipped on the top hole at snow surface, he says "Never assume it will hold more than 500 lb." YIKES! However, the MSR Coyote failed at 7.8 kN (~1800 lbs), and for comparison, the smaller BD nuts (Size 4 and 5) are rated at 6 kN, which is ~1350 lbs. In light of the "shear wedge" failure mode, the real question is how to build a solid 2-3 point anchor without adding in an American death triangle arrangement? Ice screws in glacial ice would be one option. Really, really long runners to keep the angles small and all pieces in different snow pockets? Other ideas?

I think skating on snow layers is more likely in the winter, but not too much of an issue on summer glacier snow/ice. I don't have any data to support that, but it fits with the general trends in snow consolidation. Amazing pdf, thanks for the link!

Thinking of planning a trip to Juneau to do some ski touring- any sources of info ??

"drinking heavily" or totally smashed??

Another thing to ponder is the extreme difficulty in arresting a falling climber/skier while on skis, with maybe only a Whippet. So, do you want one person in the crevasse, or the whole rope team?

DOH! My third grade teacher should be kicking my ass for "reading comprehension skills." By the by, I wasn't calling anyone here insane (TGR-ness is BS).

Hey Bergretter, any info on Shishaldin on Unimak? Thinking about a ski trip there in the next month or so. False Pass is the point in, and then ~25 miles of muskeg to get there!