korup

Taking an ice class, one instructor showed us this setup. The other instructor then (wisely) stepped in and called him an idiot for even thinking about it, let alone teaching it in a class.

Yes, this is right up there with the magic-ice-screw-retrieval-trick (prusik on rope, then coil around screw as it turns in, rap, then pull rope and spin screw out). I suppose if I had a multipitch route to descend and only a single screw or cam, I might consider it if no other options existed. Otherwise, as Ireneo said, "neat trick" and "rap" should never be in the same sentence. Is your life worth $80?

If you want to really ski, Naxos or Fritshcis are your only option. If you want to approach, you can still use that setup, and just carry your climbing boots. Not too much weight, fun, and safe. Silvrettas are very, very spooky to ski in, assuming you like your ACL's just the way they are....

What about top-roping situations? Clearly, any belayer with two brain cells to rub together would see a problem. What if the situation is out of sight?

Very interesting thread from Aussie-land regarding rope failure(s) from cross-loaded 'biners... http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.as...mp;MsgPagePos=0

from one of ScottP's websites, oh damn, stop the plague... >Suddenly, you are out there, alone, halfway up an overhang, tethered to a >well constructed safety system, in the middle of a 200 foot cliff. You are up >where the "real climbers go". This is sport climbing. This is Via Ferrata!

If you actually wanna ski (and not just approach) then your options are Dynafits, Fritschis, or Naxos. The releases on the Silvrettas are terrible, the toe bail has no release and they are spooky as hell to ski in....

aka, smoke more weed, man!!

Is there any difference between the dynamic, sudden forces (say a leader fall) and the softer pull from rapping in slippery rock? In other words, with a leader fall, the cam lobes are suddenly set tight (breaking through surface garbage etc.), whereas rapping, it might slowly walk out of a greasy crack? Pure speculation.

Yup, very impressive. However, I am quite sure the piece was not caught in the nose slot, and 'biner to 'biner connections are normal (at least aiding), so I am not sure what lessons I can take for future placements.... any thoughts out there?

Email from BD- I received your sample in the mail and have had a chance to go over it, look at it under the microscope, dig up some paperwork on the order and do some additional testing. Here is my summary: #1 Stopper - Date Code #2289 (SKU#225201) MO#31592, Cable SA MO#30946 *RM testing of single strand cable is all above spec and typical (ref test log#21267) *WIP testing of cut cable lengths over simulated stopper is all above spec and typical (ref test log#21339) *WIP testing of cable loop to confirm swage is all above spec and typical (ref test log#21649) *Final Batch testing of finished product is all above spec and typical. (ref test log#21750) Basically, all testing data shows that this batch of stoppers is typical. Additional Testing *I grabbed 5 more #1 stoppers (different batch) and tested them - all modes were cable at nut, at typical loads of approx 700+ lbs. *I even managed to find two #1 stoppers from the same batch as yours and tested them - again - all modes were cable at nut, at typical loads of approx 700+ lbs Placement Hypothesis The interesting aspect about your sample is that it broke at the biner end. All testing I have performed over several thousands of orders of raw material cable, final batches of stoppers etc has the cable break AT the stopper, never at the biner. This is what has led me to believe that in your case it was a function of the placement. As you suggested, possibly the one biner, attached to the other biner, and the exact circumstances of the placement caused enough torquing to force the failure mode to the cable at the biner end of the cable loop. I tried to replicate this at the lab but was not successful. I then thought that perhaps the nose hook of your oval wire was caught in the loop of the #1 stopper - and perhaps the narrower thickness and sharper radius was the culprit. I tested that set-up in the lab and was successful at forcing the failure mode to the cable at the biner. I tested two stoppers using this set-up: one failed at cable at biner, the other failed as is typical with cable failing at the nut. Do you think it's possible that your ovalwire nose hook was caught on the wire of the stopper? To conclude, based on the original manufacturing order testing, as well as the additional testing performed, I have the utmost confidence that your stopper was within manufacturing specifications and the cause of the break was due to variables found during placement and loading. A replacement #1 stopper will be in the mail to you this week. Thanks again for bringing this to my attention. Kolin Powick Quality Assurance Manager Black Diamond Equipment, Ltd.

Correct CBS. The only thing on the piece was the aider; clipping that piece would have been pretty silly...

Cool response from BD- Thanks for the email regarding your #1 stopper. During production of the Black Diamond Stoppers, the batches go through 4 separate testing phases 1) We test the cable alone in single strand configuration to confirm strength requirements of the cable 2) we test the cable over a simulated stopper to confirm the behavior of the cable of the bend at the end of the stoppers 3) we test the cable in a loop to confirm the swaging process 4) we test a statistical sampling of the final batch to confirm the finished product. This test is performed using a 10mm pin which is a CE standard and represents a carabiner. Given the exhaustive testing performed on all BD PPE (personal protective equipment), I find it most unlikely that the stopper in question 'snuck through'. I'm sure there is a logical explanation. The #1 Stopper final product rating is 2kN (450lbs) and is intended for progression only (ie. aid climbing) which is what you were doing. The reality is that depending on how you clipped into it, and the exact circumstances of the situation, this load is easily attainable. Let me explain further. If you clipped directly into the piece with a runner or daisy from your harness and gently lowered onto it - then the load the piece would see would be your bodyweight (195lbs). If however, you clipped a biner or draw through the piece, then clipped your lead line through the biner and weighted the lead line - the force on the piece is actually twice your body weight - your body weight on one side added to the force it takes the belayer to hold your body weight (not taking friction into account is your body weight once again) equals the load the piece has to be able to hold - in effect twice your bodyweight or approximately 400lbs. Either way you were clipped in, it is amazing how much force can be generated by an extremely small shock load onto the piece (ie. your feet slipping and losing your stance on the wall, bounce testing, etc). If you're interested Duane Raleigh wrote a great article in Rock & Ice issue October 2004 - Climb Safe Series regarding shock loading daisy chains, etc. Bottom line is that loads of 2kN are easily attained in the field. I am curious to whether the cable at the biner end of your stopper was slightly damaged. It doesn't take much to damage the 1/16" galvanized cable; a yank with a nut tool, accidentally getting the nose of a biner hung up, etc. All stoppers are labeled with a date code (4 digit number) which is located on the 3sigma tag under the plastic shrink tube. If you still happen to have this piece I can do further investigation into the exact batch that this stopper came from and get even more specific details regarding that exact batch. Feel free to email me directly with the Date Code. Also, I would be very interested to see the piece. Please send it to: Kolin Powick Quality Assurance Manager Black Diamond Equipment, Ltd 2084 East, 3900 South Salt Lake City, UTAH 84124

Yeah, I could care less about a free stopper, I'd rather it never happened...the 25+ footer was "interesting."

Just sent 'em an email. We'll see, eh?

'biner was a BD ovalwire, no burrs or other damage. I, too, assumed either the nut would shear out, or the swage would separate before actual wire failure...

Nope, no bounce testing, just three sequentially harder pulls with a runner.

Aiding Iron Horse yesterday, I had total cable failure on a brand new #1 BD nut under BODYWEIGHT (195 lbs; nut is rated to 2 kN, 450 lbs). The cable failed at the bend (biner junction, not the swage). Piece was pull tested 3 times, and then weighted- has anyone ever observed failure like this before?????

Dru, sadly, "The Long Walk" is fiction, masquerading as real. It has been pretty solidly debunked (mileage, terrain, calories, etc) several places. Interesting story, but not true....

One recent copy of Alpinist had Tomo Cesen (?) climbing a huge line on one of Himalayan treking routes (Annapurna?)- but presumably you've read that one.... cheers

I suspect that 15-20 yrs ago a large majority of climbers came to the sport from other outdoor pusuits (hiking, peak-bagging, rafting, whatever) and therefore had a large reservoir of knowledge (weather patterns, why a headlamp can be crucial, etc.). This meant there was already a good base of outdoor common-sense to build on. Today, there are huge numbers of climbers who have never encountered basic things (what a thunderhead looks like, the ability to judge how slippery a trail is, etc etc). There are folks that consider themselves climbers who have never even climbed outside on natural rock. WTF? This leads to many of the epics and gaper situations all around. You can't just go to REI, plonk down the plastic, and "be a climber." At least stuff like diving and rafting have certification programs to keep the Darwin-ism to a minimum... not that I am in favor of this for climbing, but what happens when john-john high-powered lawyer sues BD or Metolius or Petzl or whatever because somebody goofs a belay and drops someone? I fear it could happen... End-of-rant

Dru, do you have a ref to AiNAM for that? I'd love to read the analysis... Drew

Wait, you are trying to tell me a LOCKING biner failed, due to tri-directional loading, during a belay/rapping situation?

Call me a retro-grouch, but I don't think newbies should be using cams at all. My feeling is that you should climb awhile on passive pro only, too many folks think cams are just plug-and-play, leading to shitty placements and bad habits.

Well, I is a chemist, the only thing you want to think about using is the BD or Bluewater pens made specifically for a rope, Marmot and REI both have 'em cheap.