selkirk

I'm green with envy

Rapping through webbing means less gear to carry, less to leave. In my mind rap rings are usually reserved for standard rappel spots where there is already quite a bit of tat and people are continually adding more.

Though I must say I have a soft spot for hte Nitty Gritty Dirt Band

that makes me want to jump out my window!

I can sleep through anything.

A little cocoa powder or dark chocolate gives chili a deep, rich dimension of flavor(kind of like mole' sauce). A dash of cinnamon also gives it a hint of something special. But I can see where beer would do that, too. the Alcohol evaporates off, but it must be the appropriate beer for the chilli and the best beer is of course a closely guarded secret

hmmm, will have to try the chocolate in chilli though I usually just add beer

Isn't that torte?

since when does chocolate cake have black beans and avocado's in it?

Hey, Torta's are damn healthy!

Pretty much what CBS said. They know enough to sling big stuff that won't move and to clove hitch into an pre-built gear anchor. They don't know how to place cams/nuts/hexes and hence can't build a gear anchor. And Tanstaffl - While it may be a dozen days total, it breaks down to 3 days of instruction on belay/rappel/rock climbing stuff (cleaning and racking etc), 4 days of snow camping/glacier travel/crevasse rescue stuff and the balance of days are made up with days climbing. The course up til now has also assumed absolutely no technical background for the students coming in (which in many cases in accurate and in some cases underestimates the students, but levels the playing field for instruction). As it's not all much rock stuff, I would say learning to place and evaluate gear would be premature for students with no prior experience. But again, for those students with prior experience who end up asking lots of questions beyond the scope of the course, I (and all the instructors I've worked with) usually do our best to answer them. So I often end up straying into finer details that the "official" curriculum, like placing gear, different anchor configurations, limitations of gear, alternate techniques etc. As I've already stated, the current move is towards modularizing thing to allow people with more experience than backpacking to advance faster and test out of skills they already know so long as they are safe. So much of the group dynamics/instruction technique that is now, and has been in the past will be outdated by next spring as things shift toward much smaller mentor based groups.

No that would be the triumverate of Chestbeating, Bolting, and Mountie Bashing

Were you there yesterday? I saw some folks over on Breakfast of Champions. Looked like fun. We were on Great Northern Slab and Aires. That chimney still kills me. Rather quiet day out there, it seemed. Only crossed paths with one other party at the top--they were coming up Pisces. Was it mid-afternoon? If so yep, that was probably Sprocket and I I didn't see anyone else running up it. If you were in a group of 4 (3 guys one girl?), then I think we came up the start of Aires (short slightly awkward crack to the first ledge) right behind you then headed right to Taurus Oh, and we were there on Saturday.

Basics aren't taught how to place pro, or in general how to build anchors unless it involves slinging an enormous tree. For snow anchors they are shown how to build a good dead man, and a bollard, and shown the limits of pickets. In the course of a basic climb the basic will never build an anchor, but only clip into an anchor built by a more experienced climber. Nor will they place pickets for running belays. That said some of the more focused inquisitive ones do ask good questions, which I'm usually happy to answer, or refer to someone who knows more than I. Intermediates are taught more on snow anchors, and ice screws (with the caveat that only with oodles of experience will you learn to evaluate ice.) For rock anchors the standard was a 3 point equalized coordalette, and they've transitioned to John Longs Equalette this year, with the caveat that every situation is different and you need to think about/evaluate your anchors for direction of pull, stability, etc.

I'll take a headcount at the next field trip, but I'd bet the ratio of 1st year intermediates to more advanced climbers is at least 1 to 1, and likely closer to 1 to 2. No student get's through having only been instructed and observed by only first year intermediates. With the proposed changes, climb leaders would be doing all the final checks to make sure students know their stuff. (Fastest person to climb leader from basic that I know of 5 years, and she's damn good )

Some of the trepidation about these groups is the role of "the guide". To be a certified guide for rock or alpine instruction takes time and dedication. It is a significant accomplishment to have certification, and a significant resume is needed to enter the courses just to prep for the amga exams. In Europe, it's a trade program requiring essentially a college degree. These professional roles are being replaced by someone who has been through the Mountaineers basic program. Now it may well be that there's no problem with that, but it is something to think about before you launch into the Pickets with someone you might not know that well. There are often just a few bad apples creating a reputation, but it sure is lame to be with one of those apples! Of course, I'm sure the organization can make sure the right people are leading the right trips to some degree. You get guaranteed competence and experience if you pay for a certified guide for instruction or a climb. Some people are willing to pay for that. Your absolutely right. Climb leaders aren't held up to the same standard as guides. The climb leader isn't a guide but a mentor. They're someone with more experience and time in the hills who's willing to share it at absolutely no benefit to themselves other than the enjoyment of good company and the fulfillment of helping teach new climbers. Oh, and the occasional pre-field trip donut and cup of coffee. And to those who chose to hire a guide to teach them, more power to them. I know when I learned, I don't think I could have afforded to hire a guide for a week. Much less the 20 some days I probably spent learning and climbing with a mentor that summer. And I also wouldn't head into the Pickets with a group of people I don't know well (or up Outerspace, or the NR of Stuart, etc.), which is why you don't see many formal mountie climbs there, and the ones that are formal are almost entire full of people who know each well already. Going up the Sulphide Glacier on Shuksan, or the S. Arete on SEWS is a different story.

First trip to Index Tauras, Breakfast of Champions, and Toxic Shock. As a reference that 5.9, and 10a gear stuff I've done at Smith was harder Then plumbing, working in the backyard, and drinking beer

Thanks Eric and that's a brief overview of what's taught, though I might also add in navigation, and self arrest.

what a fuckin' joke...so, you can't test out, but if take some stupid crash course that's even called "BASIC" you're qualified to teach??? WTF?? I wonder how many mounties'll get the smack this year... Very eloquent thoughtful comments RUMR I wish I could expect more, this isn't Spray afterall, but you seemed intent on taking it there. Yes you can test out, though in the past it's been difficult as you needed to test out of everything (back country travel, rock, crevasse rescue etc.) My understanding is that this will be changing significantly in the next year or so and you should be able to test out of just about any given skill set. Crash course? That's why to graduate it takes a minimum of 9 months, and at least a dozen days in the backcountry, though most people get out more. Hell, I'd rather climb with the 3/4 of the basics I've met this year than you And no one says basics are expert's, who ever thought that? Certainly no one familiar with the course. Basic grads know enough to be trusted not to put the rest of the party in danger, and that's it. It's an introduction, it was never meant to produce a complete well rounded independant climber. And no one ever graduates having only been exposed to 1st year intermediates. On the field trips this year that I've helped out the majority of instructors are people with at least 2 or 3 full seasons under the belt, and quite a few folks like myself who find it rewarding, and few more who have been climbing since you were in diapers. Overall, I'd much rather climb with a basic grad than someone who climbs 5.11 in the gym, and has taken 2 days of outerdoor rock instruction through VW or a guide. Someone who's taken instruction for say a dozen days over the course of several months from a guide might be a different story but I wonder what that would cost????? And your right Knotzen, there don't end up being many official non-course related climbs. If no one needs credit the everyone just goes out and climbs without making it official.

I could say the same about climber in general regardless of their affiliation. I've seen people who do stuff that scares me to death who have nothing to do with the Mountaineers. That said, there are lot of folks in the Moutaineers who are moderate climbers and just really like to get out in the hills and enjoy teaching, which I have a great deal of respect for.

Granted. And the folks in the club know it and are continually working on it. It's just a slow process and takes the right people in place and the right leverage. Things are definitely going in a good direction though Serious props to the folks driving the changes, you know who you are :tup:

And you can still take the class at 16 I think, you just need parents permission. Also, scuttlebut has it that there are about to be some very significant changes in the Seattle Mountaineers Basic climbing course, away from the big group model, and towards a much smaller group model. With the ability to "test" out of things in which you are already competent. I'd speculate that the Intemediate course will got that direction in the near future as well.

You should probably have seen the issue from both sides to hold a qualified opinion. While some (sounds like a good number by the level of bitching on here) people have had bad experiences running into large Mountie parties, to paint the entire club with the same brush is absurd. I would be willing to bet that most of the Mountaineers do 1/2 or better of their climbing with private parties formed from connections made through the club. There are also lots of leaders putting up respectable climbs in good style, they just don't post them here. The Mountie's also end up being a catchall for the complaints about any other large group in the area. Heck, I had some Mountie friends who got stuck on the Tooth waiting for the WAC torope 12 people up the tooth. (I mean top rope, as in lead, set up anchor, bring person up, untie, throw rope down for next person, repeat, toprope). You want to avoid groups of newbies? Then stay away from routes that are magnets for newbies

I think you're going to find it hard to plan your trips months in advance in the PNW. Sure you can get a general idea of what you want to do, but committing to something more than a couple days in advance isn't a good idea. The mounties make you sign up long in advance of a trip. Not really true. I've set up/gone on several quite successful climbs (glacier and rock) in 2 to 3 days before when a good weather window presented itself.

They got on my nerves and always seemed to give me headaches I switched back to glasses after a few years. Of course my eyes are good enough that in a pinch I can do without glasses.