archenemy

Neither is giving money or donating food.

Easy tiger

I doubt it. Many (most?) of us don't think about things like doors or toilet seats, except when women mention it. Okay.

We can never know all of the factors that precipitate the behavior of others. Expectations of compliance by others to personal or codified frameworks of Right and Wrong are unhappily natural inclinations accepted generally as rational; in experience, they are wholly unsupportable. So what makes one person's belief system right and another's a "hypothetical assumption of Right and Wrong"? And of course we can't know all the factors that go into another person's decisions--we often don't even know all the ones that affect ourselves. And I certainly don't expect anyone to comply with anything I believe. But I can sure comment on what I see and throw out my thoughts on the matter. What I get out of doing that is other people's perspectives and opinions. I learn from those. They help shape what I think. Certainly you don't think I am posting in the hopes that the Live 8 group will read this, see the error of their ways, and bend to my will, do you?

I agree with watching these actions. We are talking about the same thing though--speaking repectfully and being a courteous listener are the verbal forms of opening the door. You are using the same framework. offering a glass of water is the same as offering a seat on the bus--naturally the actions must suit the situation. And if the door issue were mindless, I doubt we would have had as many men post here about it. They have questions, they have systems, they have reasons. They thought about it.

I think what sucks is that they accept them. If there is one group of people who don't need to be given stuff, its them. Why can't they auction it for donations or request that the gift-baggers do something more useful with their tax write-off givaways. Because they arn't rude and accept gifts. We can afford to go climbing and spray on a computer. Should we sell our gifts to benefit the less fortunate? We should not envy others. Celebrity folks aren't rude? And to prove it they accept obscenely expensive "gifts"? At a charity event? (maybe I misread the article). I don't magically "afford" to climb. I work. And at my company, no one can accept a gift valued over $400 from a client. I agree with not only the ethics behind that rule, but I believe that it saves on wasteful bs. To benefit the less fortunate, I am an active board member of a local nonprofit. I donate a couple of weekends each year to help fix homes that the elderly or infirm owner cannot do themselves. I donate money and clothes. For Xmas, I request donations to be made to charities I have a particular affinity for (in addition to asking for new climbing gear). I feel like this is a good start. And the thought of envying a "star" is laughable to me. Please. There are no more rude celebrities than rude people you meet anywhere else. If you're not envious of them, then why do you have issues about what they do with their own money? Just curious, not trying to put you on the defensive. Why do you make such generalizations about people you don't know personally? Every celebrity or person with power is picked apart and criticized. Either because of jealousy, misinformation or just lack of understanding. You see them getting these gifts, but you have no clue what they actually do with them. You just assume you know. It is a sad but true statement that rudeness infiltrates all sorts of people. I don't have issues with what they do with their own money, I have issues with accepting expensive stuff at what I understand to be a charity/benefit gig. I understand your post to be one of inquiry, not attack, and so I do not feel defensive. Generalizations are how we all group information. I am making a general observation and infusing my own beliefs into the discussion. We all all picked apart and criticized. So what? People generally stop taking it personally after they turn thirty or so (another generalization). Stars are easier to pick apart b/c everyone in the conversation usually knows whom we are talking about. And to clarify: I am not jealous of famous people--I am very happy with my quiet, fulfilling life. My family lived in Ketchum, Idaho, for years (right between Sun Valley and Hailey). I have known and been friends with famous folks and I do have respect for the incredible amount of energy that their lives require. I don't, however, have any particular admiration for a person due to their fame. But, like it or not, their visibility assures that their actions have more impact on more people than the rest of us can have. Therefore, make them count. And you're right, I don't know what they do with them. I don't care. I wish the stuff hadn't been accepted in the first place. It does not support the cause that they were there for.

So how do I judge a date for who he is without judging him by what he does?

Which ones?

I think what sucks is that they accept them. If there is one group of people who don't need to be given stuff, its them. Why can't they auction it for donations or request that the gift-baggers do something more useful with their tax write-off givaways. Because they arn't rude and accept gifts. We can afford to go climbing and spray on a computer. Should we sell our gifts to benefit the less fortunate? We should not envy others. Celebrity folks aren't rude? And to prove it they accept obscenely expensive "gifts"? At a charity event? (maybe I misread the article). I don't magically "afford" to climb. I work. And at my company, no one can accept a gift valued over $400 from a client. I agree with not only the ethics behind that rule, but I believe that it saves on wasteful bs. To benefit the less fortunate, I am an active board member of a local nonprofit. I donate a couple of weekends each year to help fix homes that the elderly or infirm owner cannot do themselves. I donate money and clothes. For Xmas, I request donations to be made to charities I have a particular affinity for (in addition to asking for new climbing gear). I feel like this is a good start. And the thought of envying a "star" is laughable to me. Please.

I think what sucks is that they accept them. If there is one group of people who don't need to be given stuff, its them. Why can't they auction it for donations or request that the gift-baggers do something more useful with their tax write-off givaways.

Amen. Makes me wish I weren't such an asshole though.

my point is that it's not about the specific act. if you open doors for people b/c that's the way you do things i just think it's totally lame to judge a guy by a set of guidelines for chivalry that were established eons ago. there's plenty of ways a gentleman can be thoughtful, courteous, and make you feel like the center of the world w/o pulling out your chair. judge the book not the cover. btw--i'd like fries w/my happy meal. thanks It is the specific act though. Manners are like laws in that they codify or set a standard for human behavior, they are a kind of norm. What is considered to be "mannerly" is highly susceptible to change with time, geographical location, social stratum, occasion, and others. I don't thing opening a door for a woman was set up so long ago. But so what? The chief chivalric virtues of the 14th century included piety, honor, valor, courtesy, and loyalty. I would posit that these virtues are as important today as when they were first codified.

You don't remember saying, "Engineering, eeewwwwweee"?

to the women...do women expect guys to push their chair in? what about opening car door for them? why is this a "manner" issue and why is it important? it''s maybe sweet and nice to do it the first couple of times, but how long do you expect the guy you go out with to do this for you? I find people that area serious about outdoor sport tend to be very self reliant...just not when they are in the city? Just the fact that you are self-conscious about doing the polite thing is awesome. Stories like Maries are too common. A woman's self reliance cannot be affected by someone opening the door for her. If her self image is defined by something like that, then she's not self reliant or self assured. Open the door for her until she makes it clear to you that she doesn't want you to do so anymore. Simple as that. If you're lucky, you might find a lady who takes pleasure in your thoughtfulness for the rest of your time together... No matter how a woman responds to you opening the door or pushing in the chair, you are never in the wrong when you are respectful and polite. Sincerely, Miss Manners

I am unfamiliar with the proverb.

Umm, get out of the PNW much? Bush 1 had an 89% approval rating at the start of Gulf War 1 - it stayed pretty much that high throughout the war. There was, in modern terms, overwhelming support throughout the US for the war. It was short enough that popularity didn't fall. Americans don't have the stomach for a protracted war. Umm, that statistic shows support for Bush, not the war. And of course, people get super-nationalistic during war time. We circle the wagons. Nonetheless, I hear people looking back now at the Gulf War with a totally different opinion than during the emotional heat of the war. Americans don't even have the stomach for a short war when they see images of soldiers' corpses being dragged through the streets. I don't believe it is a bad thing to feel revulsion toward violence regardless of its duration.

We write the checks, they balance the oh wait, they don't balance anything, do they?

That was the last unpopular war? I didn't think the Gulf war went over to well. And according to Orwell, he who controls the present, controls the past. Therefore, the controlling faction has always had these powers. Maybe people just weren't as apathetic about showing their disgust. Or maybe it was because folks in the 60's weren't hardened to violence as we are. Thoughts?

I know that you know it is more complex than this. The dollar is not falling due to China. And the sky is not falling, either.

I think he was being facetious.

We are screwed.

Ah, one of my favorite Danes!! But I probably wouldn't use anything associated with understanding God's ethics when looking at our gov't. Just me.

You can't start down that road. If you expect that, then you might also expect our gov't to have to use the same health care system, transportation system, retirement system, etc that we use. When would it stop?

How will you see me wink?

It was just a joke. Lighten up