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Not really an access issue for climbers, but I''ve just become aware of this item. I think I sent in comment to NPS in favor of leaving road closed. I used it once for overnight backpacking. Everybody should stay out. The valley is really a disgusting place. Olympic National Park News Release March 7, 2007 For Immediate Release Barb Maynes 360-565-3005 Finding of No Significant Impact Signed for Interim Access Route into Upper Queets Valley The environmental analysis for restoring interim access to the upper Queets River valley has been completed and a Finding of No Significant Impact (FONSI) was released today. An Environmental Assessment (EA) for Restoring Interim Access to the Queets Area was released in December for public review and comment. The EA analyzed a single action alternative for restoring interim access into the Queets Valley, along with a no action alternative. The selected alternative will use existing U.S. Forest Service (USFS) and Washington State Department of Natural Resources (DNR) roads to access the upperQueets area of the park. The Queets Road has been closed to traffic since March 2005, when a landslide at milepost 8 undercut the road and rendered it unsafe for vehicles. In January 2006, an even larger slide at the same site completely wiped out 150 feet of the road, leaving a 100-foot deep chasm and closing the area to pedestrian traffic. The roads to be used in restoring access to the Queets are USFS roads 21 and 2180, both of which are currently open to the public. These roads connect to USFS road 2180-010 and DNR road FR-Q-2100, neither of which is currently open. In turn, these roads lead to a National Park Service road to provide a route into the upper Queets. Park crews will begin improvements to these existing roads this spring, including installing a bridge, clearing the roadways, adjacent ditches and shoulders, and grading and resurfacing the roads. Restored access is anticipated sometime this summer. Once road access is available, crews will prepare the ranger station and campground for opening. Both the EA and the FONSI may be reviewed online at the NPS Planning, Environment and Public Comment website, http://parkplanning.nps.gov.

Ivon C. in his 1978 "Climbing Ice" claimed 70cm was the ONLY length to use for snow, regardless of one's height. I don't exactly remember his reasoning (something about the swing and maybe some weird, hardman techniques that involved climbing up the shaft). My girlfriend burned the book. But it did seemed convincing, if only because of the author's reputation and achievements. If I were worried about the length of my shaft (and who isn't?) & gonna buy a new axe, I'd probably get a 65cm, if for no other reasons than packing convience & current fashion. Note that although my axe is artfully banged up, I'm not a highly experienced snow climber. BTW thanks for links Klimber.. So far, I've enjoyed Scottish Mountaineering Council discussion. Some of those boys are very strongly advocating 50cm for general mountain use, which does seem a bit extreme (to me) for the average piker. Their claim is that anything over 55cm shaft is inefficient for self-arrest --------

You're probably right about route information, but regarding total volume of information, especialy historical and personal stuff. you're probably wrong. Maybe Kearney should have just done a memoir... I'm now completely drunk....God bless all three authors....

I'm Jersey Scum under different name and here's what I think at the moment: Kearney's book is more personal, probably more informative and has different aims and better writing than "Selected" I & II. But the most basic premise of all three books is the same, which is to package a few routes and sell them as "classic." All three books have plenty of merit and I don't regret buying them. My complaints are more properly about the "consumer" mindset which publishers are wild about, and which is also somewhat unavoidable for anybody (including me) born after about 1940.

What is best most obscure peak goal in Olympics EXCLUDING all general areas visible from Puget Soud & P.A. Also exclude Olympus massive, Bailey Range and Valhallas. I'm strongly interested, though also am but a dumb troll in his winter armchair.. & many of the truly dedicated ought not or can't reveal their secrets.... Edit PS. Areas excluded because they are comparatively obvious and/or recently documented. I'm looking for opinions, both informed & speculative.

Another idle post.: Grasping axe with hand over adz is reasonably believed to result in a more secure placement of spike. Apparently Yvone Chouinard started this debate in his (very seminal) 1978 book "Climbing Ice," in which he unequivocally advocated "self-bely" grasp, suggesting it's quicker & therefore safer and more efffective, to stop a slip with spike of axe (self-belay) rather than falling into self arrest position, at which point one has accelerated. Subesequent edition of "Freedom" included this view, but made no strong endorsement and suggested either grasp was valid. Am unsure of current edition's viewpoint. Teaching rank beginners a technique preferred by (some?) experts may or may not be appropriate. In late 70s NW, I was, of course, taught self-arrest grasp, but in 1990 class with AAI (Bellingham) I was re-educated to use "self-belay" grasp. On a 2002 (AAI) guided climb of Mt Triumph with the remarkably talented alpinist, guide and actually nice guy, Dylan Taylor (who may still hold speed record on Sleese's Buttress route), I used this technique to quickly stop an embarrassing slip on moderate slushy snow upslope from a crevass (though I imagine that perhaps Herr Taylor might have easily saved me/us). Practice during glissading with attendant, repeated & relatively high-speed falls on moderate slopes further boosted my confidence that shifting one hand to self-arrest isn't difficult, and hence I'm sold on self-belay. (Take care, Dylan) --John Seward AKA "Jersey Scum" --------

Manning's work required a true believer and much of that work was accomplished when the NW was a vastly different place. But ignoring the preacher's word leads to dangerous pathways.

Off White: I'm sorry for my misunderstanding. I actually thought this thread pertained to the late Harvey Manning, and that the initial poster intended to question Manning's viewpoint and accomplishments. And please also forgive me for my reaction to your nick-name. I didn't realize it was supposed to be a tasteful joke.

Harvey Manning was, simply, a giant of the Pacific Norhwest, and those opposing his viewpoint, one must say, were merely .... dwarfs.... I'm sorry but Mr. Fairweather, you can only really debate this point on some weirdo Rapture-type Karl Rove/John Ashcroft type message board, but I don't believe it's really possible here. "I hope The Mountaineers choose an author (who won't) continue exploiting divisions among diverse user groups or be so quick an advocate for the gate and padlock." As I've implied in my earlier posts, this is drivel to climbers. But I wanted to continue here and inquire, who is "Off White" and why does he edit Fairweather's post? (And what after all, must the screen name "Off-White" suggest to readers about American history and our current circumstances?) Readers of this board must be uncertain whether it's "Fairweather" or "Off White" who is telling us that "I've spawned this off of Harvey Manning's obit thread to give the disscussion it's own life and a little distance from Manning's passing"?) "Off White" wants us to "Keep it civil folks." A nice sentiment, which I guess might occur when you've spent too much time in the lovely Northwest? Actually, Fairweather, I used to see Norman Rockwell riding his bicycle, in Stockbridge, Mass., and I do still love his paintings...I like Grandma Moses even more....But, well, you know.... . ----------- __________

Your post contrasts sharply with Fairweather's rather eccentric viewpoint, and the rathar weak link offered suggests agreement with Manning's essentially radical outlook (???) one would imagine.

Fairweather: You seem to have many answers but I don't think Manning's view was quite so complicated. Never having read his many hiking books, I only got his rather uncompromising view on climbers' "wilderness ethic," which I believe remains definitive. He probably would not (as you apparently would ) favor re-building the road to Dose campground, for example. Manning got big-time results for the elitist faction. His main opposition could (we would hope) be described as "dead-enders," to accurately use a now infamamously unfortunate Dick Cheney term. Manning had vision and truly great achievements, and NW climbers should obvioulsy be very pleased that he influenced many many thousands of people who would do well in whatever small measure, to follow his gigantic example.

Isn't climbing elitist and hierarchical? What's wrong with that? Manning's view was elitist. It worked pretty well for many purposes and reasons. I highly recommend "Walking The Beach To Bellingham." And BTW his versions of "Freedom" and the bits that survived a couple of later editions, were easily the best-written of the series. Don Graydon, "Professional Writer," et AL., be damned.

Fits yours

After only one night's use recently, I have yet to get a complete handle on the virtues of the Hex, though I did enjoy its very high doorway. I'm sure it's a very good product. To call it Hex "3" might be a rather cruel surprise for the third person, depending on circumstances, however. I found it very spacious for one. The Black Diamond-brand Megalight/Megamid models apparently have more useable space than Hex, due to a square floor plan, but with their shorter centerpoles, the headroom must ergo be less. --

Forgive me for making a late edit here and rephrasing this. GoLite's Hex 3 tent is same price as BD Megalight model, but different. I have not used either but am in the market & like the general plan. Which is better ?

I've used a Sil Shelter for at least 15 nights in forest and am getting to really like it when lower roof is guyed to tree. A really vintage design. Properly set up I'd say it can be nearly as solid as betamids, though much smaller. Has anyone used this type of tent in mosquito-filled alpine basin or similar and able to tell about the experience? I'm getting to miss the Northwest... ----------

So it sounds like Aliens are a better product than C3s? BTW yeah, Jerseyscum not working for me, literally, as I couldn't retrieve password, although I remain scum from Jersey-- or at least in beautiful downtown Jersey City. In a former life Jersey license plates would get me enraged.

I've got neither and want to buy a couple of one or the other. Besides the price consideration, which should I get and why?

MEC Brio. It deserves to be much more popular. Excellent price too.

Has anybody done routes listed as #2 or #3 in Olympic guide book? They are both to right of Camp Siberia -- I guess the east side of mountain. I'd be interested in any impressions or relevant information.

Vice President Dan "Potatoe" Quayle is on the board of directors of K2 Inc. (stock symbol KTO) To konfirm this, see KTO Web site to http://ir.k2inc.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=101913&p=irol-governance

I'm definitely buying this. My question is unseasonable, and have probably asked before in a different context, but has anybody used a floorless, netless tent in moderate-to-severe mosquito conditions? If so, how much protection did it afford? I considered bringing one to ONP last summer, but at last minute took mini tent instead, and in the end, was glad for netting while camping in alpine swamp... The Sil Shelter (one pound, squeeze two people) can be closed off by overlapping front flaps and I'm sure is fine for fall through spring... but I'd be interested if somebody says they used something like this effectively for insect protection... Or the reverse..

By George! You're right... I checked, and they've already synthesized the stuff... You know, I've been stuck in traffic on the Long Island Expressway for the past eighteen months and haven't been able to keep up with anything but Rush Limbaugh and "Traffic & Weather Together" on the radio.

An apparently proven fact about gecko feet was mentioned in recent story regarding nanotechnology in The Economist magazine. NYTimes this week has following three sentences: "A gecko's foot contains millions of minuscule hairs, or setae, with tiny pads at their tips. Because they are only 200-billionths of a meter wide, the tips get close enough to any surface to be pulled by the surface's weak molecular forces. The combined strength of all the setae on a single gecko, Dr. Autumn found, is enough to lift an offensive lineman, about 280 pounds." Possible implications for climbing shoes, and gloves, can be guessed...Wouldn't this be cheating? --------

I just heard about this route in Seattle newspaper, which briefly gave it big hype ---and called it "Infinite Bliss" so what it's called? Preiss/Weiss?