johndavidjr

I'm a dog with a bone, and if I keep it up I will be banned.

The rescue party entered Deception Basin, from Royal Basin, to reach scene. It's not clear where the accident took place. OMG Rodf, thanks for an interesting post! Your very first here.

So, RodF, I gather you don't know or care about Harvey Manning's contribution to northwest mountaineering. It's a matter of record that you never post on Cascade Climber except about having the Federal Government hire heavy construction equipment to build a 5-mile road on the Dose, and this apparently in reference to the "local economy" which is mainly a tiny collection of vacation and retirement bungalows with inadequate septic tanks that are apparently wrecking Hood Canal. Explain your peculiar and exclusive interest in this subject? Do you have a special focus on climbing Constance or Anderson? Can you post some trip reports or otherwise contribute? I'd be all ears.

It's Manning's writings for the most part, that you remember Fairweather. Did you ever read Manning's "Walking the Beach To Bellingham?" What a searing personal memoir, mixed with amazing history of the Puget Sound dating back to the 1930s. Spring never produced anything remotely like this. Perhaps you recall Manning's editions of "Freedom?" People joke about this book, but Manning shaped it into what it is today, working with dozens of people like Fred Beckey and Willi Unsoled and god knows who else. Most of that exact prose survived in subsequent editions, the majority through Peggy Flemming and much into Don Graydon's editing. Manning's general plan for the book continues unchanged in current editions. Manning's definition of Northwest "wilderness mountaineering" as something unique, as expressed in his "Freedom," made a deep impression on two or three generations of young climbers, and certainly continues to exert its somewhat profound influence. How about Manning's important work toward establishing the North Cascades National Park? Certainly the "locals" in Whatcomb County absolutely hated this concept. Think it was a Texan who actually signed off on the place. Is that better than the various New Yorkers who created ONP (with zero support in virtous Washington State at the time)? A biography of Manning might even be worth publishing. Not so sure about Ira Spring. I guess Spring took some nice Kodachromes and climbed some hills. But haven't we all?

The South Early Winters Spire bolt issue may be more interesting. But Havey Manning was certainly known for taking a very long view. Contrary to above post, quite obviously, Manning was extremely productive and influential many decades, with regard to both the development of Northwest climbing and wilderness preservation. He left a very important legacy in this regard, and there is no doubt what he believed about stuff like the Dose project. Ira Spring, whatever his various achievements, was considerably less accomplished in these particular areas.

From Jan. 11, 2003 Seattle Times: Manning said his friendship with Spring ended over the summer. "Ira and I were friends for nearly half a century, but not anymore," he said. "He's gone his own way. He's now a trail promoter, not an environmentalist."

Sorry but let's take another look at: http://www.drizzle.com/~rdpayne/opa-alerts.html A Short History of the Dosewallips Road. Much of today's conflict over the Dosewallips road stems from poor decisions in the distant past. In the decades before the creation of Olympic National Park, commercial interests pushed hard for a road across the Olympics. The Brinnon to Lake Quinault route was at the top of their list. The forest service was compliant, and Photographer Asahel Curtis was conscripted into the promotional effort. By the 1930s CCC crews blasted a road up the steep grade of Dosewallips Falls to Muscott Flat. With the creation of Olympic National Park in 1938, road construction was thankfully halted. This legacy of early road building abounds in the Olympics. Hikers today seldom notice that stretches of scenic hiking trails at Staircase, the North and East Fork Quinault, West Elwha, Obstruction Point, Deer Park or Duckabush were at one time early roads. Trail conversions have lessened ecological impacts and created new recreational hiking opportunities that few regret. A Dosewallips River trail would provide nearly year-round hiking, biking, and equestrian access though a magnificent valley forest. It would access two quiet, streamside campgrounds and a spectacular falls. It is by far the best choice for the Dosewallips. For the nutter case, see also http://brinnonprosperity.org/focusitem_dose.html And may God bless the 400 households of Brinnon and bring them endless propsperity!! What would Harvey Manning say about this project? If Fred Beckey were/is capable of advanced moral reasoning, what might the values that he has eloquently expressed suggest? This RodF guy only posts here (and certain similar boards) about this multi-million$ Dose construction project. NOTHING else. His rather intense and sudden interest in Cascadeclimbers.com seems...peculiar...

So true. http://brinnonprosperity.org/focusitem_dose.html http://www.drizzle.com/~rdpayne/opa-alerts.html

Yeah, a philosophical thing. You may know there was a plan, in the 1960s? with solid support in Port Angeles, to construct a tramway that would reach far into the Olympic National Park. It was a question of improving public access. Earlier, there were plans for a road up the Elwah and across the Low Divide. That it was never built is an historical anomaly. Then of course, who pays for this Dose construction project? Generally places like Jefferson County are subsidized by federal taxpayers. These places get more value from the feds than they pay out. This is neither tangential nor personal. This looks like a $10-$15 million job. Are there other, more worthy FS projects? Can Jersey City contractors get a piece of this? (Probably.) So the ice cream parlor in Brinnon will sell more ice cream, and project will pay for itself? And what's your problem? You don't want to hike an extra six miles? Somebody ought to open a shop in Brinnon, and rent mountain bikes. What an extraordinary opportunity!!! Brinnon prosperity (.org) will soar!!!! Instead of another government bailout, entrepreneurialism can yet win the day!!!! ---------

Uh Oh... Flame war? Dubious for "Acess" forum...Now don't take this too personally Fairweather, because I respect you perfectly well, and you've been helpful and kind to me a couple of times. But my "premise" about creation of the park isn't a premise but rather just a few facts. I find it ironic to hear the same bleating of generations past about the same issues today. TO say that the Dose issue isn't relevant to park management is ....Not very insightful? What might you have to say about sailboi's link to: "+The Eco-logic site - This is an expose on the Yellowstone National Park, and private property rights." Gee, I wonder what that one's about. A local issue perhaps? Or how about this one: "+ Michael Crichton - Global Warming" Even better: "+Still Waiting for the Greenhouse... - the John Daly site." How about his link to the utterly brilliant "Freedom 21" site, where you can read that "it has become clear that U.N. Agenda 21...is a worldwide collectivist government under the penumbra of the United Nations. Successful implementation of U.N. Agenda 21 policies and processes has already resulted in loss of private property throughout the USA. The ultimate outcome of successful implementation of U.N. Agenda 21 will be as follows: * Loss of USA independence * Forced USA servitude to "developing nations", * Diminished individual liberties of USA citizens, and * Loss of private property. That's only a taste of what you can find there Sorry, but NOBODY needs somebody like that offering "education" about national park issues.

Fairweather: With all due respect, I recently read a history of the park called "Olympic Battleground" which was a little bit long and boring, but very comprehensive and meticulously documented. If it were up to the locals, there WOULD HAVE BEEN NO OLYMPIC PARK. NADA NIX NOTHING. The roads were all mapped out and the stumpage fully calculated in terms of board feet. In fact, the park owes its existence in very large measure to the long-term efforts of two HIGHLY ELITIST rich people in New York City, working closely and at times even a little deviously, with a politico/journalist guy, who lived both in DC and St. Louis. Opposition to establishing ONP was die hard and essentially monolithic in the Northwest. They used any and all tactics to kill the idea, including plenty of lies and also, you may be sure, bitter complaints about "elitist outsiders." Getting North Cascades National Park was a cakewalk in comparison (but it too, faced tremendous local opposition). It's an interesting story, and I recommend it particularly to people like yourself, who are fortunate to be so intimately involved with the place. As for sailboi, I don't really mind that he isn't a climber, or even that he doesn't like to hike. Or that he is wrong about the road construction project. Please look at the links on his Web site that I referred to. I think his stuff is really very bad news indeed.

Sailboi is the same guy whose Web site offers lots of really weird links to far-right wacko crazy political stuff about the United Nations taking over the world with their black helicopters. He seems to have taken down the anti-darwin link that included an eyewitness account of seeing a dragon flying over the ocean. But that was my personal favorite! Am so sad to see it go. To see what I mean, go to this page on his site, and hit some of the links at left, especially the ones toward the bottom under "related resources" and under "daily news." http://brinnonprosperity.org/focusitem_dose.html Positive proof of devolution in action, and another sad reason not to move to PNW. He and RodF only post on CascadeClimbers.com when they want to talk about this topic. It appears the ice cream-stand constituency is trying to push this, hoping for more RV traffic. Sorry to be so frank about the Web site links, but they make Rush Limbaugh look like a communist. For those who have minimal respect for reality, and any interest in Dose road construction project, see Olympic Park Associates: http://www.drizzle.com/~rdpayne/opa-alerts.html

Interesting. Nepal Mountaineering Association conducts 45-day training sessions with Slovenian guides in the Himalaya for $1,500 total. US guide services get almost that much for a week on Baker.

Uhh... AMC has now morphed into ACC on this project. In effect you are correct. Nobody can save the tradition of free, year-round Gunks camping. Too bad American Alpine Club is so willing to be the instrument here. AMC's name has been mud in Gunks since 1960s "Vulgarian" days. Also, as an added bonus, here is Fred Beckey at Gunks last October. I spent that entire week camping there. The place was nearly deserted. -----------

Doninis said: "What we want to do in the Gunks is offer an alternative between free camping with few facilities, and expensive motel rooms.... We have no intention of restricting free camping." I guess "we" had no intention of wrecking Iraq, either. But an easily predictable outcome nonetheless. My apologies to readers of this generally excellent forum for my difficulty in letting this thread slide past. I'll try to put it on ice for awhile.

Mattp is among the MANY CC posters....whom I ALWAYS read with serious interest and respect. So Matt, here is the story, obviously: ACC = not totally bad. AAC in this case = doing serious wrong due to inadequate thought. NOBODY will EVER get through to them on this. It's a totally concrete wall. As a result of this debacle in the long term, AAC, a CRITICALLY IMPORTANT, NATIONAL FORCE FOR CLIMBERS, will LOSE some of its VALUE AS AN ORGANIZATION FAVORING CLIMBERS' INTERESTS. Complex historical argument: Consider the Appalachian Mountain Club. Have you heard of the Vulgarians? This was reaction to AMC's efforts, in about 1960, to impose foolish club "standards" on anybody who wanted to climb in Gunks. AMC's name has suffered as a mountaineering group, for 40 years due to these efforts. Though Fritz Wiessner et al., were once major forces in AMC, it's now considered merely a hiking group. Has nothing to say about climbing. ACC, assuming its plan succeeds, will enter Gunks local folklore in a similar fashion. This is a long-term proposition and its name will suffer long-term, national harm. The national climbing scene will suffer some loss as a result. This is GOING TO HAPPEN. THAT IS WHY NW CLIMBERS ought to care just a little bit. -------

Builder: You assign to me zero credibility, a difficult approach to discussion. Also, might point out that for example, Mt. Rainier Ntl Pk, was set up to satisfy the railroad/lumber interests. A weird but true history. See for example, "Olympic Battleground" an interesting, perhaps weak, but highly detailed and well documented work, published by Sierra Club. So take care on whom who you spend your volunteer work hours. But here's the AAC's ONLY press release and it's from two years ago. http://www.americanalpineclub.org/pdfs/06%20AAC%20Shawangunks%20campground%20news%20release%20FINAL.pdf#search=%22shawangunks%22 A lot is left unsaid, and in fact, the situation is somewhat complex. If you don't see why Northwest climbers should care, then maybe it'll be best for you just wait around, until somebody needlessly and thoughtlessly trashes a local tradition in your backyard. I'm sure they too, will think they're doing you a nice favor. --- Edit to fix link

Sorry to belabor a point. If you don't understand, and want to, then please read the final four paragraphs of interview linked below. http://www.theuberfall.com/hankinterview2.htm The item is a bit old, but maybe you'll get the drift. MP, ACC and state are now partners. AMC is out. I'll post on this again after the MUA and Slime are closed next year. Will add the AAC's address, where you can mail in your reservation request.

Um, you're quite right. The AAC does some good things. Sorry if I implied they don't. (I do find a tad anachronistic their "annual black tie dinner" at Manhattan's Union Club, the "Oldest US Gentlemen's Club." No, not THAT kind of gentlemen's club. To each their own, if they've got it, I guess.) But more to the point, I do have a pretty good handle on Gunks camping, & sadly, the AAC is being highly irresponsible on this project.

The American Alpine Club is trashing the local tradition of free camping with no regard for who gets hurt. They're doing this to get a high profile for the increasingly obscure club in a very active climbing area. The AAC members I've met don't stay in free campgrounds; They jet to black-tie dinners held by their club. They stay in expensive hotels, or on their yachts, or just buy a few acres and build a vacation home.

It's all rather arcane local politics, the upshot of which is, of course, climbers lose. The American Alpine Club is fully aware of how their plan will hurt the climbing public. Yet they persist because operating the private camp will raise their profile. A Little Background: The super-straight-laced Mohonk Preserve has very major influence and the inside track on whether state-owned free camping continues. The MP guy says in link above: "I think that the state needs to change the way they manage it or stop allowing camping there." He goes on to say, "I think the state is kinda holding off on investing a lot of resources into [free area] because everyone is thinking that the AMC* is going to open this facility." AAC and MP are now partners on the private "facility," with MP operating in the background. A state guy told me that when AAC camp opens, the MP will probably acquire the adjacent, currently free site in a land-swap with state, and close it down. MP's property currently surrounds the site. It's not that MP particularly wants the land. But their super-wealthy board members and financial backers own lots of property in the area, and dislike the appearance of chaotic parking that develops on a dozen weekends per year. Also, what's a "land manager" to do but "manage?" - *Appalachian Mt Club, or AMC, tried decades ago, to impose its "certification" test as a requirement for all gunks climbers. More recently, they sought to develop the private campground & then decided not to. AAC, with a far lesser track record in facilities management than AMC, might, in theory, make a similar decision at any time, before or after the state site is closed. ----

AAC is hurting climbers and the nuances don't alter this. Its project will close the free area, turn away countless people who want to camp, while charging fees to those fortunate enough to have reservations. Off-season camping will be no longer be possible. But by way of background, AAC's partner on the project is Mohonk Preserve, which owns essentially all Gunks climbing. MP's "Director of Land Stewardship" made some slightly illuminating remarks on the topic several years ago, just before AAC replaced AMC as partner on campground project. See bottom of linked page: http://www.theuberfall.com/hankinterview2.htm

The American Alpine Club is working on a project that will close a long-established and well loved, free camping area in the Shawangunks. This will harm the interests of climbers. The free camping area is open year-round. No one is ever turned away. It is clean and orderly, and is patrolled daily by state rangers. AAC expects to open its own campground next year, directly adjacent to this free area. The AAC camp will require fees and reservations, and will be closed for much of the year. It will routinely turn away climbers when it reaches capacity, which will be on all prime weekends. AAC executive director Phillip Powers says its campground has no bearing on plans to close the free area. This is either disingenious or misinformed. Here is what AAC board-member Conrad Anker sent me, when I asked about this in February. My concerns have since been ignored: Greetings John, Thanks for your note regarding free camping at the Gunks. In the west we take "free" camping for granted, yet in places like NY and Europe it is a slightly different matter. I am departing for the AAC board meeting today. We are in session all day Friday and I will make note of your concerns. Kind regards, Conrad ~~ Conrad Anker Bozeman, Montana 59715 USA

I'm looking for anybody that was on this climb with Evergreen State College Students. Just idle curiosity. The rockfall was highly memorable.

I've used something like a Mega a fair bit, but only once when bugs were at all numerous and not, in fact, extremely numerous. It seemed to provide some significant protection with the door closed. I mean, what's the difference, really, between a net door and a cloth door? Obviously once you shut the door, you've got to do some extermination. That said, given opportunity to use it in a swampy Alpine meadow in the summer, I've taken a regular tent in preference. I'm not convinced either way on this question -- and never heard the voice of experience offer a clear opinion.