Dane

Not sure how many saw this on another thread but worth reposting here I think. 24 hrs out climbing in the Enchantments...12/2/09 Cause? Dehydration from a long day of hard climbing, 5 degree F or colder temps in tight fitting (technical fit) single boots. Results? 4 to 6 weeks in a wheel chair until dead tissue declares itself. 6 or more months before he is back in boots and even more time before he'll be back in tight rock shoes. Medical treatment? Emergency room, and two office calls so far. Seriously......makes a new pair of Spantiks with custom Intuition liners, new 'pons to fit and a new AT set up to go with them down right cheap in comparison.

So many things have become obvious in these threads. Please correct me if I am off base. One of the glaring issues I see is little or no infrastructure on Hood to support climbers. Silcox sounds like it gets used as much by climbers today as when it was abandoned and unused 40 years ago. No one keeping track of who is on the mountain or where they might be. No daily or current on site weather or avi info available. As much as I get annoyed at the NPS on Denali or Rainier , Parks Canada or even climbing in Chamonix all those things are easily available..current weather and avi conditions, a useful hut system for when the mountains flush you out and someone in most cases requires you to register...and they actually keep track of your route and OVER DUE date and time. 10,000 climbers a year on Hood and no support required? No wonder we see an abnormal amount of accidents there.

Here is a better picture of the Quark shaft without the add on grip support. The left side of the silicon grip on the bottom section in red is a paper thin section of rubber that is left after you trim the grip to fit the grip support. You can also see the hole that the screw makes when it goes through the thin section of rubber grip that was trimmed. Only the steel "spur" going out farther left actually blocks the screw. Easy to see now where the screw is and where the grip inserts snap into the hole in the spike. For you guys wanting to add the grip support to a Axtar I would suggest adding the factory part instead of a Grivel slider. You'll get a better balanced swing on the shaft and better support for your hand than a Slider will offer. Any one that is local and willing to make the drive to Issaquah I'd be happy to add the Quark grip (your part) to an Axtar for you while you wait and at no charge Or you could send me your tool and the part. Either way I'd like to see just how hard it really is to do for my own knowledge. Send me a PM if you are interested. Couldn't find a Axtar locally today between REI, Feathered Friends or Marmot or I'd more to offer on suggestions.

Pretty cool stuff to turn a phrase. Good on ya!

Bob I am just glad we are both still out swinging ! I did hear a rumor from last winter of a fall onto a hanging ice screw stance and then getting back on and firing the route?! You be careful out there now Just to be clear I recieved 3 inserts with each tool...one came already on the tool and two extra in the bag with a wrench for each tool. Have to assume 4 is max safety wise. As you mentioned have to think at pennies a apiece BD would have been included 3 or 4 with every tool. My guess is they made a mistake on the numbers ordered and didn't have them to ship with the first tools. But it is only a guess...worth a call to BD and asking for spares if your require them.

Lowa would work fine I suspect. Although I worry about the older plastics cracking in the cold as the Koflachs some times did. Worth doing a goggle search and see if that has happened with the Lowa you have. A well fit Intuition liner and over boots will go a long ways in keeping your feet intact on Denali

While I have not personally attached the factory Quark grip ledge to a Axtar I "think" the spike/ends are very similar on both tools. Might help to see this again. This is a Quark with the small bit of silicone rubber handle material cut away on the left side that is required to add the Quark hand grip. This is the Quark with the grip added. It is held in place by the bolt and an internal plastic cut out in the hand grip that "clicks" into the original large spike hole and is half of what keeps the grip from rotating. The bolt being the other 1/2. The hole left for umbilical attachment is about the same size as the obvious hex bolt in the grip. Hope that helps. Jordan...by most accounts it seems currently that the Petzl Cascade picks are still state of the art (in factory form thankfully) for pure ice.

A Quark and the Aztar both require material be cut from the bottom rubber section of the grip to install the factory Quark hand support. Supports come with those directions for the Quark. Obvious as to what is required on the Aztar after reading the directions. Problem is you can't replace the material once removed and you loose the full size biner hole to clip an umbilical too. Cord works fine though by adding a small loop to the hole that is available.

Funny you should ask. Worked on these today for a local hardman. Hardest part was bolting the dang sliders on for matching, as usual. Couple bucks in water proof plumbers tape, a few minutes drilling a 1/2" hole in the end of the shaft for a sling or mini biner umbilical attachment point was all it took. Maybe not the best technical tools for water ice but a great lwt alpine mixed rig if where they have been used to date is any indication. Aztar should be even easier with less work. Use a Grivel Slider on the upper and a Quark grip rest bolted on the bottom. Tape as you deem required.

Hey Bob, good review. Just wanted to let you know I got 3 pair, 6 total grip inserts with my tools. Any more (four will fit, five won't) and I suspect you'll be short on threads for a full strength clip in. I found the grip best used as small as you can make it and still get a glove into it. More like a jam and less strength required leashless if you run a small grip. I wear an XL glove and find the single spacer works best for me with my "canadian ice" gloves. A lwt OR glove, but can't remember the model right off. A second spacer is more comfortable but not as secure. You might want to try swinging from the upper grip for easy angle ice and see if that makes any difference if you haven't already. I find it fast and effective. Also worth checking out the newest BD T rated and Lazer picks. Big difference this year on strength and how they clean and place. Here is a look at the difference on the new bottom teeth. Newest Fusion T rated pick on top. Newest Laser is on the bottom.

No question it is a soap box. And just as obvious it is not the popular opinion. While I would like to advocate regulation on Hood specifically, even I don't want to go that far. from the PMR site linked above: Similar info posted before about not supporting mandatiory beacons but a cell phone and a GPS be used instead. Both thoughts I disagree with. Cell phones done't work over much of the Cascades and often as not don't work on Hood. I don't believe that people intentionally climb into winter storms thinking any type of technology is going to get them out of it. No one with any common sense would. You guys actually believe any different? You may agree with their final result (no regulation) but I find it hard to believe you would agree with the opinion beacons cause more rescues. Certainly more people having the ability to ask for help causes more rescues. One might make the same arguement with Sat. phone use on Denali or Everest. Both places where almost every professional climber will have a sat phone these days. From Whitaker's essay:

Well Fox you are free to take issue to anything I say. However I do personally think beacons (that would actually do the job, as the current ones obviously won't) on Hood would actually make a difference and save lives. My thought is based on my own experience and the more recent history of climbing fatalities on Mt. Hood. You have a right to your own opinions, those are mine. Would I like to seem them mandated? No. Would I like to see them in common use? Yes. Simple reason, Hood is different...just as you said, Even more attempt Rainier each year (13,000) with fewer fatalities on a technically harder and higher mountain. I'd have to give much of the credit to the NPS climbing rangers for less "stupid shit" happening on Rainier. Let's not relate "stupid shit" to any specific incident...present or past. "Stupid shit" in my mind relates only to a dinky 11,00ft pile of ash that a whole lot of people seem to die on needlessly on a regular basis. Now as to your other comment, what are the "We have enough regs as it is" you talking about that seem to strain you as a climber? NPS fees? Or is it the wilderness permit system that is bothering you? May be the no parking signs on private property in the Icicle? Or no overnight camping in your car in Yosemite's parking lots? (that one use to really piss me off) Guess i missed the regulations you seem to think so oppressive. On a different note...anyone else looked at the prices on Sat. phones rentals recently? This discussion made me look around a bit on Goggle. I was amazed at just how little they do cost to rent and use.

Come on Fox....the conversation needs to start some where. Assume I am an agent provocateur in this case. For what ever reasons some stupid shit happens on Hood. What does it take to get people's attention if we as climbers don't sit up and take notice that things could be different? I'd rather "us" decide beacons were a good thing (and become common place) than the state of Oregon or worse yet the NPS. Either way, we "do it" or "they" will. Thanks for the link. Currently the Spot 2 has a recall on it. And so-so reviews. It can be done better.

From my little research today it doesn't look like any of the current technology works the way I'd want it to. I'd want sat phone/gps technology with an "always on" capability when wanted or equired. Say something I could turn on while on the climb and off for the approach. Much as I would a avi tranciever. How that would work or if it is even possible I have no clue. Would I want it to be a governmental mandated piece of gear to go out with? No. Would I want one and use it if the technology were currenty available and at a decent price? You bet I would.

Shit Fox, you couldn't even finish Drury because it got dark....ya pussy Glad you got home safe, must have been scary up in those BIG, DARK mountains! You can buy or rent a beacon or a head lamp for that matter. You'll need to grow a sac. Glad we can relagate the discussion to spray now.

Let me pick on your comment I go out to climb....and come home again. All so I can do it all over again. If I thought a beacon (reliable and of reasonable size and weight) would up my chances to make that possible I'd carry one. Just like I carry a rope, helmet and crampons. I work hard at not needing Godspeed while climbing, thanks.

"Beacon" as in something that would give an accurate and readable GPS location to others when required to do so. Not the current Mt Hood variety or much else available commercially right now. We all know just how spotty cell phone coverage is in the mtns. Suggesting a GPS and a cell phone is one idea I KNOW won't work most of the time in the Cascades or Rockies. Who would need a beacon unless you started with a negative supposition Gene? What I find silly is not finding people lost on Mt Hood. I was a pro patroler when the first Pieps came out. Not the most accurate or useful tool at first for finding someone. Besides being REALLY expensive. A clue, a shovel, a probe and a buddy watching what you were doing was at the very least a equal back then. Now avi transcievers are standard gear for anyone with a clue and out in winter. Easy to work and accurate in actual use. Sure the poll is silly....which is my point....as a group disssing the idea of a 'useful" beacon isn't silly it is just stupid. Same reason sat phones and Spots get taken to the big mtns. Come on guys get over the government regulation thing and think about how a useful beacon with current technology might benefit us all. The reoccuring Hood tragedies are just a neon sign still flashing. You don't have to vote for big brother to slap you along side the head to realise we could all use something cheap and easy to use if it is reliable. The idea needs to start somewhere. Better us, than Oregon State mandating old technology junk that doesn't work as required.

Good thought but I think the technology is simply lacking to locate the missing. Given skilled and trained climbers and a SAR staff working with excellent communication and GPS location on the victims not much weather wise that would keep them from reaching a victim on Hood. Everyone involved said the weather/conditions were almost perfect during part of the air/ground search in this incident.

OK lets cut the shit. Let's see who really cowboy's up here. First question is if you happen to plop into a crevasse on Hood or take a tumble and can't walk out do you want a beacon or not? Second question is if your buddy and his partner both fall into a crevasse or take a major slide and can't get themselves out do you want them to have a beacon?

Ok, guess I am in the minority. But sure looks like a lot of folks die on Hood climbing. More than I would think possible even with the easy access. Never thought I be suggesting a beacon might well be a good idea there or any where. I am now but I have no idea how it should be implimented or by whom. And from just the little reearch I have done on beacons today they don't seem up to the task technically...yet. Not yet. But neither were crampons, climbing helmets, avalungs or avi transcievers originally. "Unique to Mount Hood, these devices can be rented for $5 at Portland-area outdoor shops[2] and the Mount Hood Inn at Government Camp, which is open 24 hours a day. The MLUs are simple radio beacons, and thus require search and rescuers to use traditional radio direction finding (RDF) equipment that provides a bearing, but not a precise location, to the beacon. Groups scaling the mountain are recommended to carry an MLU and all climbers must register before their climb and sign upon return. The MLU was designed after a school group with two adults and seven children perished on Mount Hood. (See Mount Hood climbing accidents.) The bodies of some of the group were found in a snow cave a day after the searchers had passed within fifteen feet of their shelter without noticing them." from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Locator_Unit No one piece of gear makes you safe in the mountains. But some can make it safer, like wearing crampons, a rope or a helmet under the right circumstances. But here in another tragedy where the dead climber at least moved from his original position after a fall and could have theoretically turned on a beacon. He then died of hypothermia.....exposure by the SOs report . Where are his companions? In a snow cave or a crevasse? Could they have also turned on a beacon? Obviously they could have all rented beacons @ $5 a pop. There is a reason bike helmet laws have been inacted on a county by county basis in WA. People die when you get your noggin bounced off the pavement. Most of the time it is a automobile driver's fault. Does it matter who's fault it is? Not IMO. Climber, weather, driver or just and unlucky accident that was no ones fault? No one has bothered to add up and post the number of bodies still buried on Hood. I suspect it is more than are still buried on Rainier. As a group (of climbers) I think that should bother us all.

You need dbl boots for Denali...singles with over boots won't do.

Re: reporters mace...you'd be surprised how reporters get hired. It actually does go beyound the teeth and hair...other wise we'd all (us beautiful people) be reporters right? I'd be willing to bet the reporter didn't pull the "body size chunks" out of his ass. Ask Guy Skeele (climber in video) about that quote. re: climbers From a lay persons perspective...climbers turn around and live...climbers continue and die. How else would you look? Why climb in winter for GOD's sake? Good question. Why would you?..people die of hypothermia and avalanches for chrimney sake. But a lot of us really like climbing in winter. Almost the only climbing I do these days. How stupid is that? I fell and decked from 30 feet on 5.6 rock while roped and damn near died. I've soloed trad 5.11s. How stupid would that headline look to a non climber if they could even remotely understand it...and they can't? I'd be just another stupid climber who "almost died" CLIMBING. There is no socially redeeming value to climbing in the greater non climbing community. We all look foolish.....might as well get use to it. If a beacon would find one person alive or just the body with less hassle I'm all for it.

Joe, Here is what I know of good reporters...they do some research if they have time...other than that they report...what others tell them. Down side of TV reporting is ...."it is now and it is in a hurry". A three minute spot on the Hood deaths is a lot of TV time. Be a hard story to tell accurately in a hour show. Most reporters, my Emmy and E. R Murrow winning investigative wife included, report what they are told when it comes to mtn accidents. They have no clue what the conditions are on the mountain (nor do we generally) past what they are TOLD or how experienced the climbers are besides what they are TOLD. Spot news...which is what this incident is is a "run and gun" affair. I spent a good deal of time on Hood...grew up living close to Hood and my first climbing was there. I can't see the problem with the report you gave a link to. I'm a couple hundred miles away but thought the conditions would be good that day. I see stupid mistakes by reporters everyday....part of our life style. But it generally isn't the fault of the reporter. They might look really stupid talking about climbing but they generally aren't stupid people. As climbers when we make stupid mistakes the end results are more serious. In the case of Hood I don't think beacons are a bad idea. Sadly all of us (I don't like the idea either) who don't think they are needed....are just as likely to need them as anyone else. How many bodies are buried on Hood?

Joe, No disagreement with you...beacons won't save a lot of lives. Skills and education would. We've see how far that goes. You can't mandate either or simple bad luck. The beacons would hopefully help on the body recovery. Letters to the stations? If you don't like the reporting call the reporter and let them know what you think. You might be surprised at the response. 20 years ago wearing a helmet while rock climbing signaled you out as a dork. Now even the Huber brothers wear them on El Cap. While I still refuse to wear one in Yosemite, I do wear one on ice and in the Alpine. Always have once they became available. Times change...common sense prevails at times. Too damn many people dying on Hood. Don't care what the reasons are. If a beacon would save a few or at least find the bodies quicker I am all for it. My heart goes out to the families and friends in the recent tragedy.

Hey Doug! I don't use the second grip on a Nomic or the Fusion to pull a bulge unless I am matching. Something I do alot these days in that position. The Fusion's lower handle is a couple of degrees more than the Nomic. That will make a difference. Call splitting the difference between a Fusion (also known as a "bad" ice tool and a awesome mixed tool) and the Nomic...but it isn't really splitting the difference. I have yet to pull on the top of a pillar with the Fusion. The Nomic excelled at that point on a climb for me. Hopefully I'll get out this week and scare myself I might find the same thing... Worth checking out the newest BD Lazer picks if you haven't already. Big differnece on strength and how they clean and place. Here is a look at the difference on the new bottom teeth. New Laser is on the bottom in photo. to be continued