Dane

This back from one of my buddies with as much time in a DAS as anyone. On the new DAS.... "Warmer. about 20% warmer. And it's significantly more compressible. I think this is the biggest single improvement...made in the DAS. It will look like it isn't that puffy when you first get it. Toss it in a hot dryer for 15 minutes and it will puff right up (it gets compressed during shipping)."

Geeze Allen, it is all in fun isn't it? Everyone gets an opinion it is the Internet after all. In a war of words helps to come armed and have a good collection of pictures:) Glad you asked as I am learning more about that myself. But long answer. Some Internet discussion going on about that right now. I've not used the new and thought the old one too warm for my normal climbing uses. As did many others. This time around I wanted a warmer jacket for some colder conditions (multiple days out in Canada up high) and might have bought one of the old ones this time around. (and it may turn out to be a mistake that I didn't buy the new one) Most thought the old DAS the "gold standard" of belay jackets with generally rave reviews. Then the thinner "belay/climbing" jackets appeared. Patagonia micro Puff Hoodie and the Mtn Hardware Compressor were two of the early ones. Since then belay/climbing jacket have gotten even lighter..down to sweater weight really. Arcteryx Atom Ltw is a good example but there are a few others out there as well. Many Internet 'purts said Patagonai was going to a lighter weight DAS so you could climb better in it and the extra warmth wasn't required. Sounded reasonable to me. From a phone call to Patagonia this morning it turns out Patagonia and its designers had no intention of making the DAS lighter. What they were looking for was a better insulation. The old DAS used Polarguard 3D. The new DAS uses Primaloft I. I think I know just how effecient Primaloft 1 is by comparing the Mtn Hardware Compressor (PL1) to the Patagonia Mirco Puff Hoody (PG3D) in use. Compressor is way warmer than it has any right to be given it's thickness and realtive compressability. The previous pictures of Collin Haley on Hunter in a new DAS first turned on the light bulb for me. So I started asking more questions. After my phone call to Patagonia I just sent out a couple of emails this morning asking guys I trust that have used both old and new DAS their input. I'll post the input. But my take after an education this morning is the new DAS should be even better (lighter, easier to compact into a smaller package and just as warm or maybe even warmer) than the old DAS as a belay jacket. Old DAS insulation 200 in the body 160 in the arms POLARGUARD 3D 7 denier This is continuous filament, meaning it is manufactured in a singe strand that when spun together forms the loft (up to 8,000km long). The main feature of 3D is that is has a hollow cored fibre that has a triangular cross section, making it both warmer than a straight solid fibre and more resistant to compression, meaning it will maintain its loft even with a lot of hard abuse. The fibres are very fine (14 microns) and slick, meaning it’s soft and very compressible - perhaps not as compressible as other fills but this translates into a longer loft life. New DAS insulation 170 in the body and 130 in the arms PRIMALOFT PL1 sub 1 denier This is an ultra fine short filament (15 microns) fibre, meaning that instead of having a single strand you’ve got something far more like down (seven microns) with a vast number of individual fibres being stabilized by a thermally bonded scrim. Primaloft was originally designed for the US army as a viable alternative to down, being very warm (warmer than it looks, in fact) and compressible and it is perhaps the nearest we’ve got to man-made down so far. The individual fibres have a special water-resistant coating giving the fill a very high water resistance, absorbing very little moisture and drying fast. The down side of the fill’s down-like qualities is that it is slightly more affected by repeated compression - although in clothing this isn’t as big a factor as in sleeping bags.

I just find it hard to believe no one has brought my rope out yet. BTW I did not add a new rap sling but chose to tie the rope directly to the tree. It'll have to wait till next summer again unless someone gets really ambitious.

I know both Craig and Bob. Good guys and both strong, thoughtful climbers. Here is my 2 cents FWIW. Good or bad judgement in climbing is generally decided by one thing...coming back unharmed or not. If you live through it unharmed most will say, "that was good judgement." When you look deeper what happens inbetween might make you think otherwise. I make no bones about not liking desert ice. I know some very strong ice climbers who have taken some good whippers out there all on rotten ice while ripping picks. If picks are ripping the gear isn't all that good either in my experience...which is long and through on water ice. Most of the desert ice is sun baked refrozen garbage by Canadain standards. If you learn to climb ice in the desert you'll likely be able to climb ice anywhere is my experience. For a lot of guys desert ice is the majority of what they can get. Nothing wrong wth that. But good ice climbers still don't accept falling on ice under any circumstance as "OK". It is damn dangerious. I know of more falls on water ice out in the desert in a few short years than in all my years of climbing ice and living in Canada. One of the longest alpine falls I've heard of was on ice/mixed in WA. 300+ feet! When a ice plate sublaminated off the rock picks still intact. My take on this is "we" are really lucky. And remember there is no Warden Service out there to help you out of a bind. You are going to be on your own. But think about this. When I lived in Spokane and there was snow on the ground in town, we could climb in T shirts at Vantage. Living in Issaquah now, in the never ending rain, we can often get in some good ice within a 20 min drive and a few minutes walk on the pass or have decent ice and a 40 or even 50 degree temp change out in the desert area. Things change so fast and radically between either side of the state. Ice can be safe and climbable one day and gone the next anywhere in WA. It changes that fast.....let me repeat myself.. it chages that fast. We have all heard of entire climbs falling down and sometimes with people on them or very close by with tragic results. Roadside ice climbing isn't sport climbing for the masses. If in doubt stay off the stuff and find something that at least seems safer. Many folks will never have the time let alone put it in to really understand what is happening with snow and ice conditions. Keeping up with conditions on a daily basis is impossible unless you are out there everyday. Sharing the info on the Internet helps us all thankfully! If you have little or nothing to rely for your own judgement calls remember to use and rely on your own INTUITION, your innate 6th sense. If it feels bad, it most likely is. (that covers all kinds of personal safety circumstances outside climbing as well) Walk away while you can. You can always climb another day. Even with years of experience and study that is how the best Alpinists stay alive. Trust your own instincts. Be careful and thoughtful of what you are doing. At its heart ice climbing is a thinking man's game. And while you are at it, have fun

Gene has it pretty well covered. But let me add, in general, no, I would not suggest sticking your crampons in unless or until you are completely stopped. Dropping into self arrest to catch a partner is one thing (crampons down and in if it is a top rope fall you can catch)....trying to stop yourself in self arrest is a totally different situation (feet up until you are stopped). Worse case scenario is trying to catch a leader fall with a self arrest while climbing together roped on a running belay. It is not just a case of breaking ankles or legs, which you can easily do if you are trying to get yourself stopped. And it won't take much. A bad fall can do a whole lot more. I've seen two accidents where crampons got hooked in self arrest and the climber was literally flipped over and totally lost control when the slide were almost totally stopped by a self arrest. A few seconds more of self arrest and the slide would have been of no or little consequence. Being a little quick setting their feet turned these incidents into total FU's with serious injuries. I have the scars to prove it from one of them where a 30' slide turned into a 1500' slide Any kind of fall with crampons on will get serious fast if you don't get yourself stopped almost immediatly. Think prevention and a rope as Gene suggested as a better technique to learn and use when required.

RAB is nice gear. The Neutrino is a good looking piece. It is also a jacket with sewn through seams. Lwt of course but in that weight a synthetic like the RAB Generator might be a better answer depending on your use and warmer as well. I've not used any of the RAB gear myself only fondled it in stores but RAB holds a international reputation for excellence in design and manufacture.

Allen you are going to get beat up again No one in their right mind would use a XV on Rainier...except on summit day in winter.. MAYBE. And only then if the conditions were really shitty. Or wash a decent down jacket...any decent down jacket with baffles... in a machine...any machine. YMMV of course. But any manufacture is dumb to suggest it....just be glad they offer that LIFETIME warrenty on a 2nd hand item!! Feathered Friends makes GREAT gear. We own a bunch of it and have for years. But IMO the EB XV stands inspection side by side to the FF Front Point parka and comes out equal if not the better of the two for actual climbing. Did just that last night. Even at the same price? I'd take the XV. But they aren't the same price, FF is $429 and the EB $269. I've looked at a number of really nice belay/Bivy style jackets over the last few days and few are as good. Only the Norrøna Lyngen ($378.,) looks to be as technical a piece as the XV. But I have not laid my hands on one to make a direct comparison. The Mammut hooded Ambler is another comparable down bivy/belay jacket. ($300) Many others should be relagated to shoveling the side walk...in a T shirt 'cuz no way I'd ever climb in one Been awhile since I've seen a decent down jacket I'd want to climb and/or sleep in. So I am really STOKED on the EB XV!

I going over from Issaquah early on Friday coming back that night if anyone interested.

I have a MH Compressor jacket and love it as a lwt belay jacket. My take is the 1st Ascent stuff targeting that line (MH Comressor) isn't the same quality..certainly not the same amount of loft. One of the dissappointments for me in their line. But if it is on sale... with a big enough mark down....I'd take a second look

As much as I hate 'em I've decided I need a bigger climbing sack again for a winter project. Carrying bulk mostly not weight. I have two choices as I want something now and don't *think* I want to wait on another custom CCW pack. Options are Cilo and Wildthings, likely Dyneema (gulp on that price point!) 'cuz I am rough on gear. I have a 21" back and I'm not a skinny ass kid so the shoulder straps have to fit my shoulders. I have used and like (for the most part) the Andinista a lot. Tried several Cilo packs in retail stores but with no customer service (past "they are a work in progress") or salesman knowledge, hard to figure anything out past put it on...figure out the size (maybe) and get more befuddled. So I am looking at an Andinista again...but want it stripped of all the new straps and rigged for a set of Nomics or the like. I know they fit already. Have to see if Titoune has the time or inclination to make a stripped one for me. But I doubt it. Icesac with a bullet pocket might even do. Much of what I want Graham already has wired....but unsure on fit which is critical obviously and the difference in price can be the same or $150 more comparing similar sacks. So WTs and Cilo guys tell me what you know, not what you think you know, about the fit of either companies products for you. It is a lot of money so I'd like to do this just once more Feel free to jump in here Graham and sell me a pack, just tell me why I'll feel the Cilo love!

WA is so condition dependant..most of these can be all ice or all rock depending on...well how lucky you are On Snoqualmie there is: Pineapple Express Blue Moon Ny Gully Ny Gully Direct A new one done this winter ..thread somewhere by Marcus IIRC and a couple more I forgot the names to Chair can be mixed or ice on the NE butt and n face The mighty tooff! Dragonatil has: NE Coulir if you do the left hand finish Gerber/Sink Triple Couloirs and the rest... Snow Creekwall white slabs..and others Leavenworth when it is in has a bunch of them..most like to wait for the ice. I heard the Cable is now bolted on the bottom half for dry tooling to the hanger whn it is not down. Lots more just takes a little digging. Getting soem of the 'perts here to fess up The "classic" Cascade guide books all offer great mixed and dry tool routes in the right conditions.

Punk, worth checking out "ruti's" comments above as well. I own and climb in two different versions of the Trangos. Neither fit me as well as the Nepals, which are my go-to boots if I had to have only one pair. But some distict differences in the Trangos over the Nepals, lighter for sure, easier to walk in and climb hard mixed in for me...more like a rock shoe than a boot. Perfect summer alpine boot. Nepal is a real BOOT. But the Trango last is a littly funky for me..bit small in the toe box, heels lace in tight but are no longer comfortable as the Nepal. I've walked a bunch in the Trango but I also get sore feet when I do because of the narrow toe box. Nepal last is different, tighter heels, bigger toe box. Great 4 season boot anywhere but up high in winter. But they have been used there as well. Nepal is way warmer (easily compares to the Batura for me) but the Trago Extreme Evo is warm enough for most things short of really cold full on winter temps for me using a knee length gaiter. For a water or alpine ice boot I like some ankle support and a stiff sole and as much warmth as I can get. I use the Trango/Batura for mixed or long approaches. I use the Nepals on almost all of my ice. Trango or Batura both work on ice but neither offers the ankle support of a Nepal.

Surprizing to me but let me eat my own words and a good helping of CROW here. I happened by the EB store in dt Seattle today. Had a few minutes and browsed around with the intent of acknowledging my original diss and doubt of the 1st Ascent line and gloat a bit on how smart I am Funny that, as the yearly sale was happening with up to 1/2 off. I walked out with a XV down Parka and a "Aahsome" fleece Jacket. I have to admit retail on either piece was more than fair for the design and quality. The "Aahsome" @ $50 compares to the MH Monkey Man @ 139. or the Pagaonia R2 @ $175. I like it better than either. No way I'd pay $140 for one let alone $100...OK maybe a $100. But $50?!! I am a belay/bivy jacket fanatic and am really picky about what I use. The XV is the first down jacket I have seen in years that was actually designed as a bivy, really, realy cold weather climbing jacket. Retail is $269. Compare it directly to the FF Front Point @ $429, Wild Things @ $295 ($170 sale) and Arct. Dually @ 499, Norrøna Lyngen $378 when you can find them and the new lwt DAS @ $300. I made those comparisons in person today except for the Norrøna Lyngen. Mammut has the Stratus for $$219 which good lwt and the Ambler for a thicker jacket @ $300. and another best buy in down. I bought my last Swiss, Egge Delux for $150 in the '80s...and the XV is a better jacket imo. AND that is saying a LOT! In short...GOOD SHIT here for hard, really cold, alpine. Pick and choose though...some of the stuff is below par to other manufactures and price point I think; some way, way above. At 1/2 price some of it is really a steal imo. While it may say machine washable on the XV, no one in their right mind would What were you thinking Allen? These types of jackets typically get taken on many YEARS of expeditions before they ever see soap/ water and a gentle hand washing. With all that they'll see only HOURS of actual use (climbing) past sitting around camp or laid over your bag on the really cold nights for the extra warmth. Below are the kinds of days a XV will be perfect but worth noting Colin is in a new DAS Summit of Hunter May '09 after a jacket "bivy". "Above the headwall we simul-climbed up ice slopes until the top of the North Buttress, and then took shelter from the wind in a bergschrund. It wasn't nearly as comfy as the crevasse at the top of the Bibler-Klewin, but nonetheless a nice spot to sit down and melt snow...... After a few hours we headed up towards the summit as it was getting light, this time under beautiful, blue skies." Typical Collin understatement...about freezing your ass for a few hours no matter what freaking jacket you are wearing http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/2009_05_01_archive.html 2 day sale, Jan 6 and 7 if you are interested.. http://www.eddiebauer.com/home.jsp Edited for clarity and EB pricing as some seemed to have missed the TWO DAY ONLY SALE part of my origianl post.

11.5 street shoe..45 Nepal.

"I was looking at the La Sportiva Nepal Evo GTX. Any experience with these?" I have a similar foot and the Nepal Evos (Nepal lasts) offers me a very good fit. Trango series is not a great fit for me.

Sorta but not really. The Spantik can be a bitch to get tight if you have fit ptoblems, both inner and outer boot could have been done better imo. New outer, old style '80s inner. But lots of folks climbing hard stuff in them in Alaska and elsewhere with and without Intuition liners. The Baruntse goes back to the old style laces on the outer shell which does allow a tight technical fit when required. The Baruntse's inner boot is super easy to use with a single wrap and velcro lace system. Kinda a scaled down Intuition in fact with laces. Spantiks never fit me well because of the outer lace system. Intuition liner gave a much better but not perfect fit. But the Spantiks have generally fit most folks. Baruntses fit me off the shelf. I also use the same Intuition liner in them (or can) but don't like the issue of the big cuff. I do however really like the simple over lapping cuff and how easy they are to use in cold weather. No question the Intuition is warmer than the factory liners of either Sportiva dbl boot. If you don't like the Spantik liner might be cheaper and a better fit to use a Baruntse liner.....and it is heat formable. Take a look here on cc.com for the Baruntse review with direct comparisons to the Spantiks. Pictures might give you some other ideas. Stiffer ankle (because you are compressing more cuff) with the Intuition can be a good thing depending on the route you choose for Denali.

You won't save much weight...oz's at best. But the Intuition is a lot warmer and you use less sox so the soxes are easier to dry and change out of. Intuitions also make the boot much stiffer. Either way the boot is warm enough for Denali.

I agree Dan. Having been in there in '77 Jens and Max took pity on me and gave me a quick run through their slide show fo the trip. Purty cool struff My hat's off to them both!

I've been dicking with these for a couple years off and on and finally decided I might actually try to use them again. I'd given up in the past and just went to the lever locks and forgot about these. Then I fit a pair (Darts) up to boots (Trango Extreme Evo) they seem to work on and thought again....naw...may be not. Had a crampon pop off once. Decided I never wanted that to occur again. So who uses the Sidelock binding and what is (is there a) the trick? Anyone ever loose one? Secrets...ditch 'um...what is your answer?

One, no, the major reason, I seldom climb ice in WA.... Guess they just weren't that "experienced". Good call Craig.

imagination or no imagination? Cool route, really...no RERALLLY strong dude Thanks for the link.

25 cams @ $40 each???!!!! That includes the tricam and soem older pieces as well. No deals to be had here. Thankfully, at least we know the guy is on good drugs.

A trip up the Eigernordwand, 69 years after the first ascent “Youth didn’t bother its head about the sharp tongues of the wordy warfare that flared up after the first tragedy on the Eiger’s face. It only heard in the mountain’s threats a siren call, a challenge to its own courage. It even invented the pious untruth that it was its own duty to fulfill the bequest of the men who had died. Perhaps it even believed it. But the real spur was that inexplicable longing for the eternal adventure.” — Heinrich Harrer, “The White More here....and one of my favorite pieces on the Eiger. http://www.coppworks.com/articles/FEA_Eiger_261-01d.pdf

Yes, Helix is always our group's first choice. They rack fine. No disadvantage over the BDs imo. Newest BD's are close second except in the real shorties where Grivel doesn't offer one that size. But we are talking a preference on long sections of *vertical* ice. On anything but the BD and Helix are every bit the equal and either works fine. My preference for Alpine or moderate water ice is BD (either screw depending on your budget) because they are cheaper and I don't generally need every advantage to get up it. Grivel screws have gotten silly stupid on price. I bought when the US $ was strong. Now I'd buy the newest BD or find the Grivels cheap online. But if you like the 360 I suspect you'll love the Helix. Unless there is something out recently I haven't seen, I don't think anybody else besides BD and Grivel is even in the same game.

New Grivel 360s and one 22cm Helix, all $50 each. Two BD Turbo, $30 each. All current production and new. You actual pay priority mail shipping. Pay Pal works.