gapertimmy

Great topic Ray, I'm really interested in hearing the many different points of view on tihs one... for what its worth, here is mine: Fee's and Permits, a necessary evil? I had the opportunity to volunteer as a backcountry ranger in Yosemite last year and it gave me the opportunity to look at the Fee issue from the other side of the fence. In Yosemite, they require that backcountry vistors have a permit to visit the remote portions of the park. The permits provide a means for the Park Service to limit the over-use of that amazing place, gather usefull data on backcountry use, and educate backcountry visitors on important issues such as camping restrictions and low-impact use. And the coolest part about it was the permits were absolutely free. This of course makes the backcountry visitor happy, and much more inclined to obtain a permit. I believe the fine for not carrying a permit was around $100, but can't remember because I was just a junior ranger (didn't get to cary heat or a fine book, but still got to wear the cool uniform). While I was in Yosemite, I made a side jaunt down to the good ol' grand canyon. A similar permiting system was in place for the Grand Canyon, but getting a permit to camp in the canyon itself came with a hefty price tag. The permit had a flat rate of around $17, regardless of your length of visit, and I believe $4 per person, per night spent in the canyon. I remember being very pissed off or having to pay this fee because 1) I was volunteering for the NPS yet they still charged me up the arse just to go hiking and 2) Why was a fee necessary for this place and not Yosemite? I questioned the issuing ranger about the costs of the permit, and read the propaganda posted on their board. I forget the exact ammount, but they claimed that a percentage of the permit cost went directly back into preserving the resource, and maintaing trails and facilities. This is great, but didn't I already pay $20 at the park gate to cover those costs?! Why is it that certain areas feel it is necessary to charge for a permit, while others simply give em away? I'm Torn I'm convinced that in both scenarios the need for a permit system is definately there. Both parks have almost been used to death in recent years, and I feel it is the park services (and other gov't agencies) responsibility as resource-managers, and ours as backcountry visitors, to take serious actions in preserving our parks and wilderness areas for future generations. As it has been pointed out in other posts on the board here, our Cascades are already (and many areas have been there for a while already) heading down the path to over-use. But, the big question of course is wether or not to charge for a permit or not. With permits come the costs of issuing and policing the use of the system. These costs need to be paid for somehow... And maybe there is something besides permits for preventing over-use-- I have thought about this during many slogs back to the car after trips but have yet to think of a good solution. So what is the solution, I really don't know... I'm with Ray, and I wish I could roam in and out of the woods at my own leisure, and not have to bring my checkbook along with me, but at the same time, I am very concerned about preserving the wilderness. As the population here in the Northwest grows, more stress will be put on our fragile, already over-loved in places, cascade range; I feel there is a need to preserve, and like anything, preservation of these wonderful mountains will cost money. Who is going to pay for it? Just some thoughts to feul the flames, err I mean discussion

I've had mine for a little over a season. And, again, my only beef is the heels. If I'm traveling light, then it isn't a problem, but if I have a heavy load, blisters can always be counted on. Used them on rock quite a bit, worked great every time. The lugs have shown quite a bit of wear for one season, I suppose I put in quite a few miles on them, but they just don't seem to be as solid as vibram soles. Regardless, I have been very happy with this boot. -t

Thanks for the feedback eric. But please email all your comments to Jason about the guidebook. He then plans on incorporating all feedback, revising the text and reposting. I'm going to close this thread now....

Hello everyone! Here is the scoop on your little online Holiday present: quote: Ice Climbing in Washington State by: Jason D. Martin To Whom it May Concern Approximately a year ago I began to send out feelers to see what kind of ice climbing potential there was in this State. As I quizzed people throughout the state about their local climbing, I discovered that there is a major need. That need is a guidebook on Washington State Ice. So late in the ice season last year, I began to compile a guidebook. The book is currently in it's mid-stages. I have approximately eighty routes in the guide. Though the book is nowhere near done, I see a major need for information right now. I have a draft that is partially notes and partially complete route information. This could help people find some of these climbs that are questionable. I don't have the time to go out to every one of these places and check out the routes, the grades, or the beta that I have been provided. I would be willing to email this note oriented draft to anyone who would be willing to send me back info on what they find at these locations. Simply send an email to me (Jason) at j_dougie@yahoo.com and I will send you the notes. I hope to have all of the info compiled by the end of next season. So the complete guide will be available at your local climbing shop approximately two years from now. If you know of routes or areas that are not currently covered in the guide, let me know. As a result they will indeed be covered. As a teacher, writer, and professional mountain guide I feel this to be a great way to connect our local climbing community. As many of you are prone to agree, it's about time for this book to be developed. Yours Truly, Jason D. Martin I want to give a BIG thank you to Jason for making this guide available now, so that the whole climbing community can benefit from the beta in this guide, and participate in making it as acurate as possible. But, enough of my jibber-jabber, here is the guide: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/iceinwashington.htm -Tim

true, but I was thinking of attending the "Building an Herbal Holiday Wreath" course instead.

I remember seeing some posts about folks looking for Avalanche course information. BCC Continued Education is offering three courses. The courses inlude three lectures and one field day: http://contedreg.bcc.ctc.edu/schedule/index.html?schedule quote: Back Country Avalanche Skills Washington wilderness areas can be spectacularly beautiful, but they can also be deadly if you fail to respect their dangers. Avalanches can happen almost anytime and anywhere there is snow. This course is for snowshoers, back country skiers, glacier climbers, or others who might venture out onto open snow slopes in the winter or springtime. You will learn how to evaluate avalanche hazards, how to select the safest routes, and what to do if you, or someone with you, are caught in an avalanche. The full day session, conducted in the Washington Cascades, will include hands-on practice in route navigation, snow pack stability analysis, and transceiver search methods. I'm going to attend, and I will write up a review for the site. -tim

I'm with you daylward. Its hollywood, and as long as you keep that in mind you'll have a good time. I think Scott/Rob comment happened when Chrisy O'Donnel was rallying the troops at base camp for the NITRO-powered resuce mission. He said something like "Hey, Ed Viesturs, you tried to rescue your friends on everest a few years back, will you help save my sister" or something like that. You might have been distracted during that part of the flick by the amazing base-camp setup (complete with party-tent, kegs, scantily clad models, and of course the mission control room with oodles of computers and large LCD displays!) daylward and gang had the right idea. If your power goes out this weekend, go to your favorite watering hole, and then buy a VL ticket. Give yourself a holiday treat.

although the hook was flowing through my veins when this post was written, the post still reflects my true feelings of the VL. classic.

7:15 Issaquah 9, if anybody else wants to join in on the fun, meet outside the theater. VL BABY!!!!

Moving, simply moving. Ed Viesturs is simply amazing in this movie, but is definatley a second compared to the fine work Chris O'Donnel did. A full review will be posted soon, but please, shell out the 7.75, and check this one out!

Marmot Pass / Buckhorn is a great camp while approaching Warrior Peak. Approach via Big Quilcene River Trail, gain ~3000' to Marmot Pass, setup camp. In the early season, there will still be snow at the pass for water, or you can fill up about 1/4 mile below the pass at Camp Mystery where a stream runs year-round. Be sure to treat the water though, I've seen some questionable sanitary acts take place near the stream. Warrior Climb From Marmot Pass, leave early AM, and descend trail heading South. You will drop about 1000' and will then reach a stream at the base of an impressive avalanche scar. There is a shelter here (would make a great camp also), continue south staying around 5000' for ~2 miles. You will then reach the Inner-Constance/Warrior Couliour. Ascend snow or boulder field (depending on season) East. After about 1000' you will reach an impressive cirque with towering spires all around. You will want to locate a steep chute at the NW corner of the cirque. Rockfall is an ever-present danger due to the flakey volcanic rock found in the Eastern Olympics, please wear a helmet. Ascend the snow to the Warrior Saddle. Ascend final snow field to SW, climb easy 4th to summit, and amazing views of the hood canal, inner-olympics, North Cascades, Seattle, Rainier!! Best done in early June.

damn, anybody want a pair of tickets for tonight's show? I think I'll take Mike's advice and begin the festivities tonight in preparation for vertical limit

mike- you know I'm there man. VL baby!

just called and there are only tix left for thrusday, call asap if you are planning on going

Here is some new info on the proposed resort... Jon got this via the UW Climbing board, check it out: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 15:59:28 -0800 From: Chris Abajian <chris@abajian.net> To: UW Climbers <climbers@u.washington.edu> Subject: Park Junction resort / MRNP public comment session There were quite a few people on this list who expressed an interest in becoming involved with efforts to oppose the Park Junction mega resort outside Mount Rainier national park. I've done some poking around and phone calling and am able to report that no, the resort is not a done deal and yes, there are things you can do about it. For those interested, rather than pester this list with off-topic discussions, I've set up a website and mailing list. They're at http://parkdisjunction.org Another appeal is set for December, and you can help directly by contributing cash for the legal fees. I do not yet have an address for donations (please don't send me anything) but I expect to shortly. Something else you might consider doing is attending the public comment session for the Mt. Rainier draft EIS and management plan on Sunday, Dec. 3 at REI. This is an interesting document which I urge you to read, at least the summary. Big changes are coming to the way we use the park. I am not taking any position on these proposed changes but the EIS is directly relevant to the Park Junction resort (IMHO), and worth reading in its own right if you have (as most on this list do) any interest in or love for the park. You can download the eis at http://www.nps.gov/planning/mora/dgmpeis/dgmpeis.htm -- http://abajian.net/chris/pgpkey.html

Hey all- Jim Nelson sent in some great ice pics.. I'm going to create a gallery for pic submissions but I wanted to post em today for your viewing pleasure. Thanks again for sending them in Jim -t

we figured .com is just easier to remember... hmmm I've never really though of a hobby being a business plan, I just remember writing a business plan back at the U and it wasn't a real enjoyable experience, maybe we'll just make a mission statement or something fancy like that. thanks again for your interest -T

Lowell- We really don't have a business plan. Jon and I both work full time and maintain the site strictly as a hobby. I suppose in a perfect world, I could run this site as a part time job, and climb all day long, but we have yet to recieve an invitation to join the Quokka Sports Immersion. Honestly though, we built this site because we love to climb, and we felt there was a need for a place for NW climbers to gather on the web. We like this site so much that Jon and I sacrifice approximately 8.5 pitchers of Winterhook each month in order to pay for the hosting fees. But we're fine with this because Keystone Light tastes just as good. We're hoping that people that use the site often will 'give back' to the site by submitting pictures from trips, posting trip reports or even writing articles to share with the rest of us. Thats the cool thing about the site, everyone who posts current reports/conditions is helping make the site an extremely valuable resource for all NW climbers! But if you can't post any trip reports, feel free to send us 1/2 racks of Keystone for our long nights of web programing fun, all donations of frosty-ones are tax-deductible! If anyone else has any questions about why we made the site, or our plans for it in the future, drop us an email at climb@cascadeclimbers.com. -t

thanks for the offer mike, but I promise to only use your skills in emergency situations only.

freshiesnoun When one lays down fresh tracks on untouched virgin powder. Often heard by riders exclaiming "dude, check the major freshies".sorry, i guess its an inside joke, just me trying to be funny. very true on skiing interupting winter climbing, but hey, you gotta do what you enjoy, and right now its freshies on my mind!

howdy folks- jon and i are looking to really get our route database up and running during the winter months and we need your help. if you have any experience developing with MySQL, or web dev experience (ASP, cold fusion, perl/cgi) you could help build the new route reporting db!! exciting eh? also if you have any suggestions for the db, let us know by replying to this post. we could really use as much help as we can get on this one, your skills/ideas will be appreciated by all NW climbers for years to come! Thanks tim

spiderman the first person to free-solo the Sears tower in Chicago and cascadeclimbers.com forum user (well, not really, but just wanted to add a hometown feel to this story) got nabbed while climbing the 910 foot Over Seas Bank Tower in Singapore read the full story here.

I dream of Freshies by- Tim Freshies dance in my head Freshies dance around my bed Have you seen the Freshies, he said? We ain't go no Freshies, replied ED. ... to be continued please excuse my very sensless post, but I really wish it would snow. Also, I'd like to see if there are folks like me who fell for the shameless "BIG S PASS" marketing scam this year and bought an expanded and will want to carpool sometimes. the freshies will fall eventually, yes, they will! -Tim

Well after reading this wonderful thread over the past week, I have realized a few things: People work about as much as I do (not much that is) and most NW climbers agree that vertical limit will be the apex of all films made in the year 2000. Each time I see the trailer on TV it sends shivers up my spine, and I find myself wishing I was as cool as Chirs O'Donnel when he jumps across a deep dark void with only ice tools in hand.... So it is with this deep desire to be as dope as the folks in VL that we must unite and act upon MikeA's idea for the opening night of VL. Grab your gear, and your 40 oz, and UNITE. Show your support and love for our sacred bretheren of climbers and come to the movie, and laugh, cry, spill your malted beverage... ohh yes, it will be a memorable evening. So if you are in, let me know... Tim PS- a little know fact about VL is that my fellow mountaindude Jon is actually the stunt double for Mr. O'donnel in VL. He doesn't like to brag about it so go easy on him. Jon along with MikeA will also be staring in an epic high altitude-retro thriller due out in early 2001, stay tuned to the forums for more details.

I was up at snow lake on Thursday of last week and the snow on the northern side of the ridge was really interesting. The top layer had these huge, almost inch-long crystals, and underneath was rocky mountain-esque powder here is a pic of the crystals on the top layer of the snow: doesn't look like a very stable layer. As someone else said though, since this original snow fall was so small, there is still quite a bit of land-feature anchors for the next fall to cling to.