billcoe

You're kidding....right? Like you are talking a climbing gym, not a real route called "Climbing Gym"? Weren't you just knocking single pitch climbs like 20 min ago?

Sounds like this was this Dave and his wife Pat? More than 8 years ago. Pat died but Dave survived after lying in the snow for @3 days with a broken hip and some other broken stuff. I saw him in the hospital and he pretty much fully (physically) recovered. A toast to the ALL the volenters and rescue personal and to hoping that EVERYONE gets down OK. ________________________________________________________________ Next point: although the Oregon forum board has been jammed with lots of you new folks, most of us are happy that you've found what may be the best genuine source of real information about our sport in the Pacific NW. Sorry we had to meet like this. If you are a climber, stick around later and meet some fine folks, even Ivan is pretty solid and descent company!

I'm deeply offended. You obviously don't know jack shit about the people up there Jens. You ever met a single one of them? Just one of the people up there right now? If not then you are just talkin out your ass. I agree with the other part of your post about a bad precedent to close the Mt down to do a rescue. BUT, as the avalance danger must off the hook given the terrible storm that just dumped a few feet of heavy snow onto a consolidated base, it may in fact be saving some lives of people who want to just go up and help out, so I'm sort of torn.

Funny stuff Dude! Anyone remember when baby jessica fell down the well? Every crazy friggan loon in the US had an opinion and they all sucked. Theres 18 pages of uninformed wild-eyed speculation to date on the Cascade thread about this with an occasional informed post by a C.com regular tossed in on rare occasion. Well it didn't look like they were going to get that baby out of the well before she expired and it ran on TV 24/7. Things worked out fine in the end and it all got back to normal. Here's hoping the same finish for this circus. BTW: in case you are wondering, Jessica is still a babe! Hmmmm, someone pulled that hot babe pic of Jessica so I'll subsitute this one that doesn't even releate to the subject, no one will notice.

Utah - I missed the news conference, - my thoughts to try and toss a possible answer or 2 since you've asked it twice. There is a lot of idle speculation going on around here, and I hate to add to it, but please realise that what follows is my idle uninformed speculation only. ONLY. Here -----------> Most likely they intentionally did not carry and have extra tents, stoves, food, and sleeping bags. Carrying that extra weight is a burdon in deep (like they just had deposited up there) snow. The goal is to cover as much territory as possible, not wallow around all day with heavy packs on. Furthermore digging a snow cave would take time and then still not be as comfortable as laying a bag down in the day lodge in the warmth of the facility. When you finish a day trashing through deep snow, your muscles are trashed and you need good rest and nutrition. Digging a snow cave when you are exuasted sucks. It could be that some of the groups are doing some camping to hit the furthest reaches of the other side better, we don't know and won't until you talk to someone who was there. 2nd) A snow cat will get you up anywhere you want lower down on the south side pretty quickly. 3rd) Nice to touch base as a group, explore ideas, discuss where everybody has been and what their thoughts are - and discuss and assign the next days objectives while bringing the group up to speed and reaffirming safety goals. End of idle uninformed speculation

It's a valid question - I'll try and answer it. I think it depends on the area, but your friend would definantly want this group of SAR involved if it’s an accident on Mt Hood. I feel I'm too old and inactive in mountains to be in SAR or Portland Mountain Rescue (PMR) right now. Don't live in Hood River where the Crag RAts are out of either. Oh, I'm not a total weak-assed pussy. I can climb the odd 5.10+ crack or an occasional 5.11 on rock still at 52 years old. My endurance isn't bad, I've done 2 routes close to 2000 feet long this year, Epinphedrine 3 weeks ago for instance, where we were on a couple of young 20 –something year old asses (both certified AMGA guides) all the way up and despite having to follow a slower party, finished in @ 10+ hours car to car. I don't get into the mountains hardly at all since I've had kids in an attempt to minimize my objective risks. BUT, I use to do a hell of a lot back in the day. So with that quick preamble to introduce myself and qualify the spray and opinions about to follow, this is my opinion and I'm pretty damn sure I'm right. From what I know about the folks who are up there right now trying to find these guys, and I only know a few and talk to a couple others on this site (who I haven't been out with yet), but if you get up on the mountain you'll bump into some of these dudes occasionally cause they are all pretty active (I'm basing lots of my opinions on the random bumping into people out there someplace). This group of people is THE group of people I'd want coming after me if I was stuck up there. They are damn strong climbers, and I suspect that if I was in there company I would be the weakest one in the group currently in regards to stamina. They have extensive technical skills and are craftsmen when it comes to heading into the wild and wooly unknown, like this situation dictates. They know the mountain like you know your cars backseat. However, it takes more than being a strong climber with solid technical skills, which they have in spades. You have to be mountain smart and able to get your dumb ass up and down the mountain in shit conditions, while looking for a needle in a haystack while planning and organizing your group to avoid causing a worse disaster. If you can find that needle in that haystack, then there is a whole ‘nother skill set you need, which this group has, in spades, as well. These are the dudes you want. Period. Backing them up is a well known military rescue group that can employ state of the art Flir and other SAR equipment. I’ve drank with some of these PJs and can tell you that they are tough strong dudes who you’d want on your side in a bar fight. They are cool smart professionals and by every account ever made: damn good at what they do. I think the recent book "The Perfect Storm" has a description of PJ's in it. You friends comment could not be further from the truth concerning a Mt Hood rescue. Now Smith Rocks, I don't know what the hell they have going on over there currently. It use to be, say mid 80's, that Redmond Fire Dept was in charge of SAR. I believe that they were volenteers. Your friends comment, and then some, would certainly apply. Some of these guys, furthest they would or could climb was from a bar-stool to a pickup truck. They didn't even hike. You broke your ankle or needed an assist, and these overweight dudes would come puffing along the trail, in cowboy boots, beer guts and flannel shirts.....it was...well, better your buddies. One time, I was over there guiding, (must have been @ June 1986 I think) we had a group by Dancer and were toproping, when a young man came running over screaming at us to follow him and people needed help. NOW!!!!!!!!!!! After trying to understand what the kid was saying, we sorted out who was doing what and knowing that a sprinter was heading to the rim to get the "authorities" 2 of us left our charges with a couple of remaining guides and followed the kid over to Trezlar, a 2 pitch 5.10 and one of the best lines in the park. He had indicated that somebody was 4 feet off the ground and needed help immediately and he couldn't do it and we needed to followhimoverthere NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We get over, and a young couple (later determined that they were both Outward Bound instructors) had fallen from the top of the route and were both hanging from a single line on Trezlar. The guy 4 foot off the deck was dead, the girl, dangling 35-40 feet higher up like a macabre marionette looked dead. She appeared to have had him on belay, and was hanging face down, bleeding like a spigot was turned on, from her head, but as we weren't positive: we discussed what we were going to do which was to quickly scramble our asses up above them to the anchor and figure out how to lower them STAT. We had no gear. NO rope. No shoes or harness's. That girl might be alive and we needed to act fast, without killing ourselves in the process. I pulled dead guys shoes and put them on. At the belay, 160 feet off the deck, we see their single rope cloved into a single #2 friend, then the rope headed 90% right for 25 feet and useless - where it was run through the anchor, as if to rap. They had both fallen a full rope length onto this single shit cam 1/2 way into a shallow crumbly Welded Tuff crack so shallow that the cams were sticking out, hit a ledge on the way down and died. We had debated waiting for the "authorities" and decided not to in the uncertain slim chance that the girl may be alive. Once up there and on the ledge, we grabbed their gear and tried plugging in a couple of things, eventually figured it out, had a figure 8 on the rope, cut the cord on the friend and lowered them to the ground. It took a lot longer than I described it. We crept down and I’m saying that my balls were in my throat from fear, despite the easy class 5 descent which I would have cruised unroped and unprotected easily any other day, that day, in my size 8-1/2 feet which had someone elses size 12 Fires on them, I was afraid. So we cautiously crept down: unroped. By the time we got down SAR was showing up with a litter. I was having misgivings, as the authorities generally don't like you moving dead people. We had just acted. One of the SAR dudes comes right over to me, I can’t run away as my friend is still there and plenty of other people who know me too. I figure I’m gonna get my head bit off, but he says: “Thank you so much for getting those people down”. (The girl was dead and grey matter from her brain was at the base.) I cautiously and quietly say “really”? Then he explains that they are pretty much out of their element, they are volunteer firemen, not climbers at all, and that just last week one of them had been badly injured in a safe easy part of the park just training on the previous weekend. They had taken this call, and like the hero’s they were, were going to come out and face their fear and do their duty, despite the fear they were feeling. Looking up at the cliff, the guy was real appreciative. I do not believe they could have gotten them off the wall. It might have changed; I don’t get to Smith a lot. Your friends comment would have been true for Smith Rocks back then. Thats what I know for certain.

I'm a Bourbon afficianto, which I differntiate from whisky, which may in fact only be filthy piss from Scotland or Ireland. Bourbon is named because it came from the county named after the French monarchry in appreciation for their help in kicking the Brits asses. The notable thing of that county is the purity of the sweet water which flows out of the limestone caves. So, most straight boubons, or Rye whiskies from anywhere in that vicinity (I'd include Tennesse even if not techniqly Bourbon) are pretty damn good. If you like it straight up, then lower proof would be more mellow and prefered. Almost all of them mentioned earlier - surprisingly including the "Fighting Cock" are good, as are Van Winkles and Evan Williams. I'd also say that the old United Distillers Group Bourbons are all good, these include several variations of Wellers (including Rebel Yell), IW Harper (my fav), Old Fitzgeralds and a couple of versions of Geo. Dickels. Ageing after @ 4-6 years is a marketing ploy and really doesn't do anything for flavor. But thats me.

Yes, I'll weigh in. How is it you did not ask them to explain what the hell they were talkin about?

Uhhh, sorry, must have been me. I meant to take them off but it was early and dark when I grabbed the harness and the shit was just on it.

You're welcome, if you buy the beer there are plenty more where that came from. You can ask my wife, and she'll back me up on this: I'll yak until the words slur, you're asleep or somebody tells me to STFU. Another big point of that story is it aint over till it's over.

Nah. Not happening. Not from lack of trying or skill either. Not cause they are volunteers. These are strong, kick assed climbers who want to go get em, that’s why they are there. They want them off of there alive in the worst way. There may have been some teams hit the summit already and we don't know. Truth be told, you can't stand up in those winds like they are right now. Even when you drop the wind speed down to half that, walking in a straight line and reading a compass will cause 2 things to happen to you. 1) You can't walk a straight line despite what you are thinking cause you will get pushed the direction the wind is heading. 2nd) Reading a compass will expose part of your face to frostbite. Right on your face. I’ve seen it happen more than once. I once went up in conditions less than these looking for a single person. It was quite the interesting story and somewhat germane to this situation so I’ll tell it. I get a call at home like 2am from a friend and get a ride up to Timberline with a Sheriff's deputy. As we ride up to the mountain and we’re bullshiting about this or that the weather came up. A climbing buddy of mine had been talking about doing the route same day, I’m musing that I hope my buddy was OK. Deputy says “Whats his name”, uhhh, Mike Lake (posts on Supertopo as Rockermike), I respond, so he radios dispatch and a groggy Mike gets a phone call from a deputy at 3am. Asks him what route he’d done (Steel Cliffs solo), and had he seen anybody, he had, and described everything he saw and exactly where the person was (heading up as Mike was heading down). Turns out that Mike and this guy were the only 2 people on the mountain that day cause a storm was coming in. Mike knew about the weather and thought he could get up and down, which he did. Kid had no clue. Thought Mt Hood was an easy mountain to climb. (which it can be but he was up there in the dead of winter when fierce pacific storms will crap all over your happy face) Dude was some kid from California who didn’t have extensive experience like these guys up there now, but he could afford good gear which he had in spades as it turned out and factors heavily into this tale. 1st thing the deputy did as we get into the parking lot (wind pushing the flakes semi-sideways - @30-40 MPH) was walk over and slim jim the kids car and go through it throughly. Then we walked into the register area and found the climbing paper the kid had filled out. For gear, he had not marked sleeping bag, stove or shovel. 3 key things that the rescuers would be thinking of for days. Various people are all milling around, the weather outside is shit. Somehow later (my memory sucks, it might have been 2 days I don’t know) I wrangle my way onto a team heading where I had thought all along that the kid really is. See, the mountain is really a large area, you can’t walk a straight line and expect that you’ve covered it, you have to grid it out and you’re checking where the hell over to the left and way the hell over to the right and everything in between. Searching is slower than climbing. Anyway, we get organized then jump into snow cats (those of us heading to the farther areas) and off we went. As the cat is pumping up, I’m thinking WTF am I doing here? The F*en driver has his windshield wipers whipping and we can’t see sh*t but white flakes pounding the glass in the storm. I don’t know how he gets us up there but he does a phenomenal job of driving and doesn’t kill us, gets up past to about the Palmer and let’s us out. We almost get blown over shaking the rope and tying it on so we don’t get separated. Wind gusts to 40-50 mph, much less than currently. Maybe you can see 6-10’, if that, but not very well. We walk up the lip of the White River Canyon; I can almost taste it in my mind that the kid was there. We stop every 10-20 steps and blow whistles and yell. Only the howling of the wind replies. I was thinking that I should have been on the slop of the canyon, which is pretty damn steep right there with waist deep snow, but can barely make traction in the conditions on the relatively wind blown ridge. I’ve probably climbed this route on Hood 25 times at that point, but on this trip, I mostly remember just wanting my team and I to be able to get back safely, and I had my doubts about that. So I passed on thrashing through the deep snow on the canyon wall. Eventually the search dribbles off to nothingness as people need to go back to work and get on with their lives. It is, for all intents and purposes, called off and ended on like day 4. Kid must be dead eh? Day 5 dawns clear and cold. There are 2 of us volunteers still there, no deputies, no helicopters, no news cameras. Kid fuc*king walks right into the Timberline aid station on his own power at about 8 in the morning. We had been so beat the previous day that we’d slept in and were just shaking the cobwebs out of our brains and settling in for a cup of Joe. Shocked the hell out of us. 5 days in a snow cave. He was weak, dehydrated. Most amazing thing I saw was the kid’s feet. He’d bought a new pair of plastic boots (I still owned leather as it was the best I could afford). His feet were almost dead white and wrinkly, like he’d been in a bathtub for an extreme amount of time, but he had NO frostbite. Amazing. His core temp was down, and he was dehydrated, but otherwise he was fine. The story he told (when the other volunteer, an older fella, got done yelling and screaming at him for endangering everybody’s lives and being a punk asswipe or something like that) was that the weather broke bad as he was just summiting the south side. He’d stumbled down the Hogsback and missed the jog he needed to make to get the Timberline Lodge in his sights. He’d stepped into air where White River Canyon was and did about 2 somersaults and in a dazed and confused state choose to get out the shovel (which he had not marked on his climbing check out), and dug himself a snow cave. The right thing to do. In talking it over with him, I figure we may have been as close as 15-20 feet away from where he was hunkered down in a cave. He thought he might have heard “something” but he dismissed it as the wind and delusions. So, my point is 2 fold, where do you want to look for the 2 guys who had gone for help? The rescuers had been cutting for tracks earlier lower down in the obvious places. They could have summited and wandered over Missippi head 7 miles on the other side or so. 2nd) If you could stand up, which you can’t, you’re going to have to crawl to the exact point where this remaining fella is. It is similar to searching for a needle in a haystack as you don’t even really know which route they jumped on. I suspect it’s the left hand North Face Gully. As that route is a basic avalanche chute, and these are perfect avy conditions, who is gonna crawl up it? Ain’t me bubba, not even if my momma herself was crying out for help up there. Sorry Mama! Maybe dropping down off the top could be do able, but you won’t be able to get up there in these conditions unless you’re feeling suicidal. My story, which was @ 22 or so years ago, we knew which route the dude was on, had a visual confirmation of an exact spot. It was the easiest route on the Mt. We had lots and lots of searchers looking for days. Then the kid walks out on his own after the search is over. It's not that easy like you describe. It's not. Say a prayer for good weather, believe that everybody up there is doing all they can. Skilled people can always be used, do hitch up, call them and help out. It’s a grim job, and these are good people. Sometimes it’s just out of your hands. It just is. Sorry.

no - ? have you climbed on it BWRT?

Actually, I just noticed that Kev may not have givin all the details concerning what he was discussing. Kev, are these statements accurate? 1) There is not a guidebook for this area and it is not on CC.com, Mountain project or other online internet databases: and the routes are not discussed online to tell people what to do, what to take, and when or where they need to do it. 2nd) You need a specific piece and you cannot (easily) spot that you need this specific piece from the ground. It appears that a rack of draws will see you through as you are stareing up at it as you can see hangers from the ground. You would need to hear from another who has already climbed the route that you need that specific piece but some of the locals are off raising kids and being good fathers or climbing kick assed trad down the road so you are on your own. 3nd) Many gym climbers show up here with a rack of draws because there are other bolted lines. They are oblivious of what is really there. BC ________________________________________________________ BTW, I've never seen those bolts on mini 1/2 dome, but I've done some climbs there and it's real solid rock and a nice place to get on. Chop em and bring some big pro is my opinion, its a small formation, you can easily see that the crack is wide from the ground to remember that you need big pro!

Check back in later and let us know how that worked out for ya.

Thats funny! ________________________________________________________ I know, I was just messing with Dru/G-spotter, not implying the Baron Spire route really is 5.7 and you're a pussy cause you're not at all. Awesome job. I did solo that Rocky Butte route you mention later and downrate it to 5.8 though:-) NOT! (I did solo it and knowing where the holds are makes it easier.) BTW, I might be pulling some 5.7 indoors plastic with JF tomorrow. Aren't you suppose to be doing finals now? ie, shouldn't you be studying instead of trying to keep up with G-Spotters post count?

In a good way.

You are truly the Mother Teresa of Gym Whores.

It's in the corp. by-laws - happens everytime someone says "BOLT". BTW, people commonly see that word and think "Bitch" too, happens all the time. Common miscornception when discussing bitches, err, bolts. OW, it might be that 132 is just pissed cause you banned him once but I might be grasping straws here, or was it Minx who banned Flyingpig?

? Huh. Not a mod, regular person here.

Hard to imagine that anyone on this site would say anything rude about this: NOT ! _____________________________________________________________ Which should be a reminder to us all to treat others they way we like to be treated, with respect and dignaty. Otherwise they will deprive us of some fine company. Well, except for a few of you rude crude assholes that is....:-) there are always exceptions of course.

Mike: UPS distribution center and Fed-x hire part timers heavily for the holidays, but I have no direct info they are hiring right now. You'd be humping packages, be a good opprotunity to stay in shape, and they other chiropractors can fix your back when it goes out after all the lifting, so it's like a 2 for 1 in that regards. Check em out, it would be a good fit. Good luck.

That means chill out...... don't be a

Red Rocks: but LG, I can't see the bolts. What route? BTW, I really appreciate RD and Pope's views. Gyms are bringing in a new "ethic" and attitude, it's nice to put the old info out there for people who don't know a damn thing otherwise. But their views would have been extreeme to even Robbins when he started up to chop Dawn Wall IMO. Different areas have different ethics. Touleme and JT are different than Smith. I like it that way, and I like all of those places. Theres plenty of cracks available to climb at Smith, and the bolts have not ruined it for me as I do not climb bolted routes often, prefering cracks. The rangers put in a road to access the area, that did not ruin it either for me. Nor did having some outhouses. The bridge is what brought the crowds of people IMO, but feel free to boycott Volks show, more beer for us.

Hmmmm - more likely be one of the 2 North Face couloir routes up on the left of the NF, to the right of the Cooper Spur route. That would also minimise the slog in in deep snow, shorten a long winter hike a bit, and minimize the potential of ripping through a crevase on the Elliot or Coe Glacier as you crossed since many of the openings are most likly somewhat likely covered by snow now. Given the amount of snow lately, wonder if looking at the base of those routes - checking for obvious avalance debris - for the 2 guys who left the snowcave is the highest likelyhood of finding them. Did cell phone caller have an altimeter reading? It would be a lot easier to get to him if he's in one of the gullys than trying to drop down the Elliot which probably has a bit of a nasty overhanging cornice on it right now given how the weathers been I'd bet. He might be in luck if he's only a pitch or 2 from the top. Image of the NF avalance gully by crackman in better conditions 2004 (TimmyH). Coinkadentally, Tim was trolling for a partner to head up on the 7th to do about any route on Hood, Tim check in yet?

Damn it must be a howling gadamn gale up there right now. Shit. Anybody wants to pray, pray for a weather window for these guys right now.