Old_Man

Cool. Let us know how it goes. Some current beta especially on the approach would be nice. Gracias!

That's it, Craig! Thanks for the correction. Check out Darryl's shop in Hood River. He's got some unique shots. Gracias otra vez.

Actually, I think Charlie's got a good question: How does a climber evaluate the risk/benefit of a given slope…and alternative routes…or activity choices? I think you’ll find both extremes here on this board…some folks might encourage you with a “go fer it,” and others will hedge their responses with conservatism. Your actual decision will fall somewhere between the two extremes, tempered by your own risk tolerance. Like Erik says, it really comes down to your own goals, and what you’re looking for when going out. The only way you’ll know if you made the “right” decision is to…go out…or stay home or do something else. Both options will have their set of consequences, and depending on your skill in evaluating the choices, I guess it’s always best (for me) to err a bit on the side of being conservative. They say, even “avalanche experts screw up,” as they sometimes are tempted to cross uncertain terrain because of comfort developed through knowledge. In the long run, there will be plenty of opportunities to get out and do things, but a wrong decision based upon incomplete information (which is what you’d have under the current conditions), could end up in a fatal mistake. And Forrest brings out a good point. Many people don't even recognize they're out in avi conditions, until aftewards--and their decision (or nondecision) is only reinforced because they "survived." Maybe that'll lead to further poor judgments in the future. Guess it's not a bad idea then, to go out with others who are more experienced--who are willing help you through the learning process. Your post implies that you’ll be alone. If that’s true, if you happened to get caught in a slide, your fate would be sealed without any opportunity for rescue by a friend…who would be equipped with a beacon, shovel and a probe, and probably some kind of a communication device. Having a partner along too, adds some check and balance into the equation as well. Good luck, and let us know what you end up doing.

Hey Fairweather, You got a link to the slide you mention?? I know there's been a couple slides in the pass couple of years. Think the USGS has printed something, somewhere?? Pretty awesome shot. The route goes pretty quick out of the Mazama high camp. Mov'in along quickly on reasonably solid snow conditions seems to be the trick. There's a action photo on the route in the Longshadow photography studio down in Hood River (www.longshadow.com). He's got plenty of shots if you're looking for route photos. Not sure if he's got anything from last year though. Good luck...and be sure to post a TR after your trip.

Iain, Perhaps we crossed paths with you up there...when your crew brought out those lost souls off the Nisqually. Lucky guys, they were. Never heard how you found'em in the fog and snow...guess they called with a cell phone, er sumthun. Had planned to go up to Muir, but knew we were destined for a short trip just to the base of Pan. Just as we were about to turn around, saw several guys coming down the summer route off Pan. Said they had read a lot and knew what they were doing--and where they were going. Guess they never read about the Winter Route up Pan... Was in striking contrast to your guarded approach, where the conditions you all found with comparable aspects on Pan. Heard the rescue crew observed 6" to 3' crowns. Reminded me of a 17 year-old that was killed in '78 coming down Pan the same way as those fellows yesterday. Lots of snow...15" new, and with the crowns your crew observed...I suppose it coulda happened on Pan again. Nice work to all those that were on duty...and standby.

Distant view of the Nisqually Ice Clif Area. Closer view (slow to load: sorry 'bout that). For all routes: Best to show up at the base of the cliff at first light for crossing under ice cliff. "Think" about short roping when making the move under the ice cliff to minimize rope snags. Nisqually Ice Cliff: Worth doing. Watch for icefall (duh). Approach like doing Gib Chute (almost to the base of the chute itself). Scurry across under ice cliff without much elevation gain if possible. Once on route and up chute, slowly traverse upward & right. Try not to stop until out of serac danger. Nisqually Cleaver: Climbed less often. A bit steeper and more continous than regular route. Soft snow conditions can make it a little less airy. A reasonable route as long as there's enough snow to connect slopes. Nisqually Cleaver Direct: Not sure if it's seen a repeat, after the first ascent by local climbers around '99. Route is steeper up near the top of the cleaver (depends on cornice). Was done as a 'dayer from Paradise on first ascent. Gear: Two tools nice, or at least 3 tools per 2 climbers for lightweight ascents. Pickets 3-4. Helmet for safety, and khata for good luck.

Trask, Gracias. Will upload tomorrow....it's time to upload this OM into bed.

I've got a good photo of the route...how do ya upload a photo without linking it from a website...so it's visible on the thread?

OM has climbed with Jess. He's a tough young climber, with some brains behind that brawn, and not too impulsive, like 20 year-olds can be. It's cool that Jess has the opportunity to attempt Everest. Godspeed for a great trip and some good stories for post-trip sharing. Hopefully by his return, he'll be 21--and can join us inside the bar for solid celebrating, no matter what the outcome of his experience.

These trail running shoes are da'bomb. Have put in several hundred miles in them. Highly recommend them. Wish they were 11.5's...I need a new pair!

Good correction, Gator. Probably also worth noting that Van Hoy and Edwards are still "at it" on Rainier, some 20 years after they made some of those earlier ascents. Smolich was a quiet and very strong climber from Sandy. Probably had one of the most Hood ascents, by the most routes, under his belt at the time of his death on K2's West Ridge in '86. His partner, Al Pennington, also from PDX, was killed in the same avi. I've seen a plaque for these climbers in Silcox hut (last time it was tucked away someplace...maybe they'll mount the memorial in a more visible place. Smolich and his friends were the motivators, who had little money, behind the renovation of the hut). Rumor was that J. Roskelley climbed Lib Ridge in a day in around 20 some hours or so back in the '70's, and then Van Hoy and Edwards went up in the early '80's. According to the stories they've shared, the team climbed Lib Ridge and Sunset Ridge during the same week, each climb in a day. It was a string of 'dayers which they've continue to knock off when conditions are right.

Sweeeeet photos! Great TR and info!

Sweet TR...reminds me of old times. Was on WT around 25 years ago...mighta been my rope. Seems like we bailed outta there one time, meaning to go back, and didn't. Guess we managed 2 or 3 pitches--couldn't been shorter piches than yours (not sure if we used 40 or 45's then). Nice beta...makes be wanna go back and try again.

TM...thanks for the heads up, pal. Good to know what's going on there at the parking lot. Hopefully you've got the o-ffic-ial po po on their tails as well.

In regards to the record, I think Timmy's right. Seems to me it's like between 20-21...done a few years back. There's a regular group of runners who do a 3-day supported "run" round the mountain every August. I'm sure this group's got the tabs on who's got the actual record time.

Have thought of doing the Stevens-to-Snoqualmie "dayer," or sumthun like that. How long does it usually take, and is it a "reasonable" day trip going light? Distance? Once thought to do the Wonderland in a day...but then thought a 3 day early Sept trip would be more enjoyable. No or little snow, except for the E side, and not too cold. Would take 1 bag for 2 people, and a bibler. Nuts, sandwiches, and the carbos, but no stove to save weight (polar pure instead). Other ideas for lightweight travel you've been using??

Looking for a lightweight pack to use for day "mountaineering" trips in the Cascades. Like to carry pickets and wands in side pockets, so it'll also need to have some wand pockets & side compression straps. Ought to be a top loader to handle some overloading at times (like slowshoes, or whatever), with a reasonable but not overkill waistbelt. Don't need the salesman's answer for all the bells and whistles either, that beats the competitors' models in terms of benefits & features. Rather...would like a purely functional and lightweight pack (less than 2-3 lbs??), that can carry gear and clothing...like what's needed on a cold weather less traveled/steeper route on Rainier. Doesn't have to be extremely comfortable, but then again, needs to handle the job for 15-20 hours. Any favorites out there? Gracias in advance!

On December 31, 1978, 17-year old Mike McNerthney was tragically killed in a large slide off Pan Point. It came down mid face, just about where the switch back makes its turn. Mike was a strong and upcoming climber from the local family with the same name. The entire face, just about to the winter route, ended up sliding that day. There were several of us at Muir the night before…looking forward to climbing the Nisqually Ice Cliff or Gib Ledge. There was a strong E wind that set up some wind slab that eventually scared us all off…lots snow sounds and some slides in the dark. Everyone turned around, but several folks let their guard when descending Pan. Others have been hurt/killed in the same area. The W slopes (climbers left) ON the snowfield have been known to slide. With cohesive snow conditions, the “pull” from the lower slopes that drop into the Nisqually can reach into some of the gradual slopes of the western part of the snowfield. Most would guess these slopes, which are low angle and only 30-50 yards from the Nisqually drop off, could never slide. Three to four foot crowns have been observed, but it doesn’t happen often. When in doubt on the snowfield, I stick to the line between the Sugarloaf and Moon Rocks. There is a “winter route” up Pan, which is on the very right side on the face (climbers right). Check with the Rangers about the route and current conditions. At times, even the winter route is questionable. The whole Pan area can be disorienting in the clouds, so some wands and/or using a GPS can be helpful. (Be wary of stray wands too, since they can mistrack the route.) Several folks have been lost in this area. It amazes me how often I’ve seen folks just plodding up the face of Pan after some fresh snowfall—on skis or snowshoes…in the general area where Mike was killed…without even digging a pit to check the slope or taking other safety precautions. Call me chicken, but most of the time I’ll default to the winter route, even while others are gliding up the easier and more open slopes of Pan… A round trip to Muir can’t be beat!

my bad...actually, my boots are the millets, and not the sportivas. appears as though a similar boots. heard rumor this style of boots were gaining popularity in euro circles. not the best boot for mac, but might work for a quick trip...and certainly there's the single boot issue to work around. let us know how you like the sportivas.

cool...been using'em for about a year now. not quite as light as my old white koflachs, but when considering the gator is built-in, it's 'bout equal. haven't had cold feet in'em yet. if there's some rugged deep/crusty snow (and you're over like 5.8 or so), it's possible you may need a longer length gaitor...but really, i haven't had a issue yet. have front pointed with them a number of times up 2-3k slopes with no problem. gotta get used to really dropp'in the ol'heel though, since they do have a little flex. did think there was a possible tendency to twist an ankle in them when running down the slope...only since i'm used to my taller/stiffer plastics. Great with lightweight crampons for speed climbs up moderately steep alpine kinds of things in the PNW. seem to perform ok on rock. Had considered wearing them up Mac sometime in the future. anyone used'em up there?? ugly...is cool. too bad they changed to the white fabric...i've got the orange ones that look like the big brother. let us know how you like'em!

As you said..."From MRNP Climbing Proposal Info , "Cost Recovery does not pay for actual SAR missions."" True, the IMHO doesn't pay for rescues over $500, but it does pay for the rangers presence on the mountain...making them more available for rescues when needed.

There were a lot of good ideas and alternatives discussed during the meeting, and whether or not the proposed fee is implemented will depend on meaningful comments submitted by the public. For more information, you'll want to review: MRNP Climbing Proposal Info The most interesting alternative that was expressed, was the idea of one flat fee per season (like $35, per person). That amount/idea appeared like it might cover the increased costs and upgraded services, and somewhat benefitted those local users who attempt "the mountain" more than once each season. As a local user, this seemed to be the least painless idea or alternative discussed. The costs are going up in any case, and if the fees remain the same...the services to everyone will go down. I agree it would be cool to pull out all of the services--but in reality this will never happen. Gator and the rest of his rangers do an excellent job on the mountain, providing a variety of services. They stuck their necks out for a number of climbers this past summer, and saved a number of lives. Kudos to each of them for their selfless efforts. They certainly don't get paid what they are really worth. Write/respond to the NPS fee proposal, and encourage them to adopt the flat one-time annual climbing fee. Or, express an alternative--short of pulling the services, again, which will likely never happen. You can submit your response to: mora_climbing_fees@nps.gov Stephan, it was good to see you at the meeting. Sorry we didn't have a chance to meet.

Cool, it's a ways out, but not too early to start planning. If you're looking for a local experienced Cook guide, PM me and I'll hook you up with a couple of choices. Nice guys...friendly, helpful, and know the routes up Cook by heart.

OK, maybe not so firm. I need to sell it before X-mas. How 'bout $250...

Heinrich...nice TR, and the route update is appreciated. Maybe some of the recent precip has covered the ledges?