Alpinfox

From "Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills"(I know this isn't "The Bible", but it's a good general reference)"Spring-loaded devices, both wedges and cams, are easiest to place, but are heavier, more expensive, and somewhat less reliable than passive chocks. However, they often work in parallel-sided and flaring cracks where it is difficult or impossible to get anything else to hold."Hmmm... some support for my argument that cams are easier to place, but some support for my detractor's admonition to not "trust your cams". Anyone care to discuss how cams are "somewhat less reliable" than passive pro? I concede that theoretically a well set nut in a good constriction is totally bomber, but in the real world, wouldn't most people agree that your average nut/hex placement is more prone to coming out after being pulled upward or failing after the fall because the constriction wasn't ideal?I've never done one of these before, but: What is "easier" to place, passive or active pro?PassiveActive

Careful there Mr. Tactful, you might hurt my feelings. You may disagree, but I certainly do think that cams are easier to place than passive pro, and the newbies that I have taught to lead have agreed. I've heard several times, "I trust cams a lot more than nuts" from newbies. Passive gear can be bombproof, but I've seen gumbies put a nut into a crack, it stayed put so they assumed it was good, but when it gets a little tug, BING! That can happen with cams too, but I think it's less likely. Of course people should learn how to place passive gear, but I think heading out to do routes as a newbie with ONLY passive gear is sketchy (even though that is how I, and many others, learned). Being safe is the most important thing and if they get halfway up a crack with no constrictions so the nuts don't work and they don't know how to use or don't have hexes, a cam is going to save their ass. My rec is, as I said the first time, get both active AND passive pro and learn how to use them by placing them while standing on the ground. Jiggle em, yank em, weight em, and see what stays put and what doesn't. Evaluating placements (passive and active) is tricky, but the general idea is that you want as much of the working surface of the pro in contact with the rock as possible. For cams, this means all lobes should be touching the rock and the the lobes should be somewhere near the middle of their active range. Jiggle them a bit and make sure they don't walk to much. For nuts, you need to find a constriction in the rock that at its smallest point is thinner than the fattest point of the nut you are placing. Again you want as much of the metal surface touching the rock as possible. Give it a bit of tug down with arm-weight to set it. DO NOT lean back or use body weight when setting/testing the pro because if it pops, you will likely fall. It's a little harder to explain how hex placements work, but I'll give it a try. Hexes should be placed in a crack with the large flat surfaces against the walls of the crack such that when the hex is weighted it tries to turn and thereby cams itself into the crack. That's probably hard to visualize from my description, so just go out and try it. For any given crack, you generally have a lot more suitable cam spots than nut/hex spots. Another reason why cams are nice to have. Remember that gear often gets pulled up slightly when you climb above it, especially if the sling isn't long enough, and that this can cause a nut/hex to pull out or a cam to rotate/walk. Then do some faux-leading (placing gear while toproping). Then do some real leads. Apparently Retro and I agree that Leavenworth has some good beginner cracks. Isn't it great that we can all agree on something? I wish you luck and good times. Cheers, -AlpinLemming?

Ridiculous. We can't blame them for being annoying because they made an attempt before-hand to warn us that they were going to be annoying? That reminds me of that Simpson's episode where Bart says "I'm gonna walk towards you windmilling my arms, and if you get hit, it's your fault". Neither the Mounties, nor anyone else, should be out in the mountains in large groups. It is just too disruptive. Freakin' Gore-tex-encrusted locusts!

Improperly placed passive gear often falls out when the climber gets above the piece and it gets jiggled. Cams might walk, but even so, they will usually hold a fall. Cams are also faster to place, so if you are sketching above a runout or marginal pro: "Wham, Bam, Thank you cam!" Isn't that a Metolius ad? Anyway, newbies need to learn to use all kinds of pro and having a wider arsenal available while learning is a good idea. I would also recommend placing lots of gear of all kinds in cracks while standing on the ground. Check em out. Wiggle em. Yank em. Figure out what stays put and what doesn't and WHY. Then try some faux-leads (placing gear while being toproped). Progress from there. Cheers.

I'm sure a mountie group will ruin your otherwise solitary presense on these routes... Geeez Ursa. Way to point out the obvious. Is that the best you can do? Your attempts to bash me haven't worked out so you pick a couple of needles out of the haystack and try to poke me with them? Bahahaha! OF COURSE those two routes are crowded even without the M's, but on a lot of the routes on that list a climber would reasonably expect some solitude. If you want to try to defend the mounties, you're going to have to do better than that. MOUNTIES SUCK!

I was kidding... sort of. The Mounties can usually be avoided by staying away from Alpental valley on weekends. They are not frequently encountered elsewhere. However, the potential exists to get to the really cool climb of your choice and find a group of 20 Mounties saddling up. This has happened to me a couple of times and its really annoying. The point is that the mountains do in fact belong to all of us and we should all strive to have a minimal impact on those areas. This goes beyond not leaving candy wrappers lying around and not stomping down alpine meadows. It means we should also try to go into the mountains in SMALL GROUPS and be QUIET and try to disturb the area as little as possible. I don't think the Mountaineers grasp the full extent of the minimal impact philosophy. On a very different note, how do I embed a photo in my post? i.e., NOT an attachment?

Hey KJ, If you are going to go out trad climbing, I would recommend getting some cams in addition to the passive stuff. They are easier to place and easier to evaluate than passive pro and therefore less likely to pull than a marginally placed nut/hex. Placing passive pro takes a bit of practice and you want the greatest safety margin when you are just getting started. Cams sure are expensive though. Make sure you like climbing before making the investment. Leavenworth is a good place to do some easy trad climbing. Best of luck.

Testing my ability to post an embeded photo. Please disregard this post....

Here is a list of all the places the Mountaineers do their basic climbs: Adams/Mazama Gl 2 BG 3/3 ---JA-- Trout Lake 360-395-3400 Anderson/Anderson Gl 2 BA 1/4 -MJJA-- Hoodsport 360-877-5254 Baker/Boulder Gl 2 BG 3/3 --JJ--- Marblemount 360-873-4500 Baker/Coleman Gl 2 BG 3/3 --JJA-- Glacier 360-599-2714 Baker/Easton Gl 2 BG 3/3 --JJA-- Marblemount 360-873-4500 Brothers/S Couloir 1 BA 1/2 AMJJASO Hoodsport 360-877-5254 Cathedral Rock/SW Face 1 BR 2/1 --JJASO Cle Elum 509-674-4411 Clark/Walrus Gl 2 BG 2/4 --JJA-- Wenatchee 509-763-3103 Corteo Peak/SW Ridge 2 BA 2/3 --JJASO Marblemount 360-873-4500 Cruiser/SW Corner 2 BR 2/3 --JJASO Hoodsport 360-877-5254 Cutthroat/W Ridge 1 BR 2/1 --JJASO Marblemount 360-873-4500 Daniel/Lynch Gl 2 BG 2/2 --JJA-- Cle Elum 509-674-4411 Dome Peak/Dome Gl 3 BG 2/5 ---JAS- Darrington 360-436-1155 Dragontail/Colchuck Col 2 BA 2/2 -MJJA-- Leavenworth 509-548-6977 Eldorado Pk/Inspiration Gl 2 BG 2/3 ---JAS- Marblemount 360-873-4500 Fin/NE Ridge 1 BR 2/2 -MJJAS- Marblemount 360-873-4500 Foggy Peak/N Ridge 2 BR 2/2 ---JAS- Verlot 360-691-7791 Garibaldi (E)/E Face 2 BG 3/3 AMJ---- Garibaldi 250-898-3678 Glacier Peak/Kennedy Gl 3 BG 3/5 --JJA-- Darrington 360-436-1155 Glacier Peak/Sitkum Gl 2 BG 2/4 --JJAS- Darrington 360-436-1155 Glacier Peak/Vista Gl 3 BG 3/5 --JJA-- Darrington 360-436-1155 Guye Peak/W Face 1 BR 2/1 -MJJASO North Bend 425-888-1421 High Priest/N Face 2 BR 4/3 --JJASO Leavenworth 509-548-6977 Hood/Cooper Spur 2 BG 3/2 -MJJ--- ZigZag 503-622-3191 Hood/S Side 1 BG 2/1 -MJ---- ZigZag 503-622-3191 Icy/W Route 2 BA 2/3 --JJAS- Glacier 360-599-2714 Ingalls/S Face 1 BR 2/2 --JJASO Cle Elum 509-674-4411 Ingalls/SW Face 1 BR 1/2 --JJASO Cle Elum 509-674-4411 Jefferson/Whitewater Gl 3 BG 3/3 --JJA-- Detroit 503-854-3366 Kangaroo Temple/N Face 1 BR 4/2 -MJJASO Marblemount 360-873-4500 Little Tahoma/E Shoulder 2 BG 3/3 --JJA-- White River 360-569-2211x2356 Logan/Banded Gl 3 BG 3/5 --JJA-- Marblemount 360-873-4500 Logan/Fremont Gl 3 BA 2/4 --JJAS- Marblemount 360-873-4500 Lundin/W Ridge 1 BR 2/1 -MJJASO North Bend 425-888-1421 Mixup/E Face 2 BR 4/4 ---JAS- Marblemount 360-873-4500 Monte Cristo/N Col 2 BA 2/2 --JJA-- Verlot 360-691-7791 N Twin Sister/W Ridge 1 BA 1/2 -MJJASO Marblemount 360-873-4500 Olympus/Blue Gl 3 BG 3/5 -MJJA-- Hoh 360-374-6925 Rainier/Emmons Gl 2 BG 4/5 --JJA-- White RIver 360-825-6585 Rainier/DC 2 BG 4/5 --JJA-- Paradise 360-569-2211x2314 Ruth-Icy/Traverse 2 BG 2/3 ---JASO Glacier 360-599-2714 S Early Winter/S Arete 1 BR 2/1 -MJJASO Marblemount 360-873-4500 Sahale/Quien Sabe Gl 2 BG 2/3 ---JAS- Marblemount 360-873-4500 Sahale/S Slope 1 BA 1/3 ---JASO Marblemount 360-873-4500 Sharkfin Tower/E Face 2 BR 2/3 ---JAS- Marblemount 360-873-4500 Sherpa/S Route 2 BA 2/4 ---JAS- Cle Elum 509-674-4411 Shuksan/Fisher Chimneys 2 BG 4/4 ---JA-- Glacier 360-599-2714 Shuksan/Sulphide Gl 2 BG 2/3 --JJA-- Glacier 360-599-2714 SilpperySlabTwr/NE Face 1 BR 2/2 -MJJASO Skykomish 360-677-2414 Silverstar/Silverstar Gl 1 BA 2/1 -MJJAS- Marblemount 360-873-4500 Sloan Peak/Corkscrew 2 BA 2/2 ---JAS- Darrington 360-436-1155 Snowfield Peak/Neve Gl 2 BG 2/3 --JJA-- Marblemount 360-873-4500 Snowking/NE Shoulder 2 BA 1/3 -MJJAS- Marblemount 360-873-4500 Stuart/Cascadian Couloir 2 BA 2/4 ---JAS- Cle Elum 509-674-4411 Temple/W Side 2 BR 3/3 ---JAS- Leavenworth 509-548-6977 Three Fingers/W route 2 BR 3/3 ---JAS- Verlot 360-691-7791 Tom (E)/White Gl 3 BG 3/5 -MJJA-- Hoh 360-374-6925 Tooth/S Face 1 BR 3/2 AMJJASO North Bend 425-888-1421 Unicorn/S Side 1 BA 1/1 --JJASO Longmire 360-569-2211x3314 Warrior/SE Summit 1 BA 2/2 -MJJAS- Quilcene 360-765-2200 Whitehorse/NW Shoulder 1 BA 2/3 AMJ---- Darrington 360-436-1155 Wedge/W Ridge 3 BG 1/3 -MJJ--- Garibaldi 250-898-3678 Witch's Tower/SW corner 2 BR 1/3 --JJAS- Leavenworth 509-548-6977 Yellowjacket Twr/E Flank You're right. I'll just avoid all of these areas. Like Rainier, Baker, Shuksan, Leavenworth, Stuart, etc. Great idea.

True, I saw them coming down the ski area and assumed they were coming from Das Toof. Not such a strange assumption... True, I ridicule them for overdressing because they are following a formula, not thinking for themselves. The Mountaineer's logic seems to be, "If there is snow anywhere in the vicinity, I need triple-layer-goretex and plastic boots or I run the risk of hypothermia. No matter that I am sweating like a pig, snow=goretex." I didn't weigh his pack. That's why I said: Judging from the size of their packs , they must have been returning from a 6-day siege of Das Toof. I swear this one guy's pack must have weighed 70lbs! It might have weighed less, but it was friggin' huge. Bigger than any pack I've carried on a two-week winter climbing trip. Seriously. Apparently they were mounties (someone said they were up there doing a basic snow course or whatever), so I was correct in that assumption too, but even if they weren't they were still a bunch of wankers for being in such a big group. I don't have a problem with newbies trying out their skills in safe environments. But roped travel down a ski slope seems a little pedantic (I looked that word up cuz I'm stupid). I've taken lots of newbies out into the mountains. I've even done some guiding (in small, unobstrusive groups I might add). Thanks for allowing me to clarify myself Ursa.

Learning shouldn't be ridiculed, despite what that other thread says. However, thinking that the Mountaineer's way of doing things is the only/best way to do them is patently ridiculous. Besides, who wants to learn mountaineering skills from some wannabe scoutmaster? The attitude of most of the Mounties I have met is that if you are a climber in the PNW and haven't taken the Mountaineer's series of courses, then you are unsafe, unskilled, etc. They seem to think that they are the experts who use the "proper" techniques and look down their noses at everyone else. I don't care so much about that, but I do care when a huge group of them starts bumbling all over an area I'm trying to enjoy. They are obnoxious annoying vermin who travel in huge groups and make lots of noise. "ON BELAY!" "OK!" "NO, JOHN, THE PROPER RESPONSE IS 'BELAY ON'!" "OK, BELAY ON!" "NO, JUST SAY 'BELAY ON'!" "BELAY ON"! Etc.... McMountaineer

The tooth isn't a large area. They do bother people. I am a prick and an idiot.

My dear Ursa, Everyone has to practice mountaineering skills and do conditioning, but most people don't feel compelled to do it in groups of 100. The M's are a bunch of sheep that "overgraze" the mountains and make life miserable for other climbing parties who are unfortunate enough to have not checked the Mountaineer's schedule before planning a trip. Making fun of the mounties may be old, but they deserve it. After all, anyone who didn't outgrow the cub-scout-indoctrination-style of learning outdoor skills by the age of 12 is a jackass. "I earned my walking-on-snow-while-roped merit badge today!" To be a wee-bit constructive rather than just blasting the buggers, I recommend that any Mounties reading this post a "Climbing Partner Wanted" email on this website, get a partner, buy a book or two, practice your skills, and then go do some climbing. Teach yourself. You will learn the lessons more fully, you will probably enjoy it more, you might develop some self-reliance, and you won't be such an obstacle to the enjoyment of others in the mountains.

From the Mountie's website: "About 200 Basic Climbs are offered from May through October." Holy shit!

My glacier travel skills are a bit rusty... I think tomorrow I'll go walk through the mall all roped up with 23 of my closest friends. If I'm feeling really bold, maybe I'll take some 'pons and a couple technical tools and see if I can make it across the ice rink! Just for practice you know...

Bike thing happens first Wednesday of every month. Vroooooom! Vrooooooooom!

After returning to the Alpental parking lot last Sunday after an exploratory jaunt up the western ridge of Snoqualamie Mtn, my partner and I watched hordes of triple-layer-goretex-clad, plastic-boot-wearing wankers coming down from the ski area. They were roped up and ready for any crevasses they might encounter on the ski slopes. They must have been pretty comfortable with the terrain because I didn't see anyone hammering in pickets or putting in deadmen every 50ft. Judging from the size of their packs, they must have been returning from a 6-day siege of Das Toof. I swear this one guy's pack must have weighed 70lbs! I assume that sort of overkill/stupidity could only mean Mounties. Can anyone confirm that there was a Mounty fiasco going on last Sunday up there? So do they take on Das Toof every weekend? More general rant: Why do people feel the need to "get away from it all" in groups? Is this similar to the phenomenon of women going to the bathroom in groups? The mounties aren't all bad I guess... They sponsor the Banff Film Festival.... They publish some guidebooks... That's about all I can think of.

Do you think he could take his car as a carry-on? That would be freakin' sweet!

Rope burns? How did you get rope burns? You were tied together right? Hmmmm....

Hey Dustin, WR of Prusik was one of my first Alpine climbs when I did it a couple of years ago. It's a fantastic route and you will have a great time. The WR is definately worth the hike. I would recommend bringing lots of slings (plenty of features to use as pro) and a small rack up to 2". I don't remember using a lot of small stuff, mostly medium. If there is a lot of snow on the rock, especially the slabby areas, that might be the only major obstacle for you assuming you are pretty comfortable up to 5.7ish rock. Personally I find snow over slabby rock to be the most sketchy terrain around. Snow? Great! Rock? Great! Snow on rock? Dear God save me.... Anyway, here is my TR from a couple of years ago: Prussik Peak (8000ft) via West Ridge 6-2-01 – 6-3-01 Partner – A.S. Route Description in “Selected Climbs in the Cascades” Though early June is a bit early for this route, we decided to climb it the weekend of June 2,3 because permits are required to camp in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness after June 15th and they are in high demand and short supply. We chose to approach the climb via Asgard Pass rather than by the Snow Creek trail because we thought the former would be more scenic and starts a bit higher than the latter. In a continuing effort to go light, A- and I carried only the barest of essentials prompting me to leave my camera in the car. This turned out to be the biggest mistake I made during the whole weekend with the possible exception of leaving my ice axe sitting by the car at the trailhead on our way home on Sunday. 6-2-01 – We started hiking from the Stuart Lake-Colchuck Lake Trailhead (3400’) around 11:30am under cloudy skies. The hike along Mountaineer’s Creek was very pleasant. After crossing the creek a couple of times, we started climbing the steep trail up to Colchuck Lake. Around 5000’ (there was a sign) it started to snow. The snow and wind came in flurries for the rest of the night. From beautiful blue Colchuck Lake (time?, 5600’) we got our first view of the intimidating wall of Asgard Pass. During occasional cloud breaks we got views of balanced rock, Dragontail Peak, Mount Colchuck, and all the various spires surrounding the lake. We climbed the pass on large talus (low) and soft snow slopes (higher). We were lucky to climb the pass (and descend on Sunday) late in the day so that the snow was soft enough to not necessitate crampons. From the top of the pass (time?, 7800’) we hiked another ~2 miles following cairns wandering around the frozen “Enchanted” lakes being observed by a hoary marmot along the way. After hiking ~10 miles and gaining around 5000’ from the trailhead, we camped about half a mile below Prusik Pass near a small stand of trees that gave us some protection from the wind. Shortly before we crawled into bed, the sky cleared and we got our first view of Prusik Peak rising behind a hump on the East side of Prusik Pass like a Patagonian tower. It was breathtaking and intimidating. I must admit that due to the cold, wind, snow, and steep clean rock spectacle in front of me, I doubted our chances of a successful summit bid the next day, despite the forecast of clearing weather for Sunday. That night we were blasted by powerful, occasional blasts of wind interspersed with complete calm. After taking a couple of ibuprofen, I finally drifted off to sleep. 6-3-01 – The next morning we took our time so as to give the rock a chance to warm up. It was still quite chilly at 9am when we left the tent and I was not looking forward to putting on rock shoes. We quickly climbed the pass and traversed left (north) along ledges to what we thought was the base of the climb. We roped up and A- led the first pitch that after climbing we discovered was just a lump on the ridge that we could have walked around on the South side. After the first couple of pitches, the sun warmed us up and I began to feel very confident about our chances for success. The rock route was relatively straightforward, so I never ended up taking off my boots. There were only two sections I would not have felt comfortable leading in boots. The first was the famous “short but unprotected 5.7 friction slab” and the second was the “lie-back up a steep corner (10’)” that starts the final pitch. Before ascending the 15’ chimney to the summit, I noticed something shiny in the crack below me and using by nut-tool on a piece of webbing I was able to fish a carabiner out of the crack. Attached to the carabiner was another nut-tool! The views from the summit were wonderful. We could see Little Annapurna, Dragontail, Balanced Rock, and The Temple as well as all the enchanting frozen alpine lakes that give this area its name. Looking over the south side of the summit, we could see the awkward leaning corner of the top crux pitch (5.9+) of the South face route. I was happy we opted for the easier route. It took a long time and about 6 rappels to get to snowy ledges on the north side of the peak. We then traversed back to Prussik Pass and down to our tent passing a few marmots on the way. We collected our stashed packs, ate lunch, and began the lengthy process of getting back to the car. Before we reached Asgard Pass, we stopped by a nice little spot where a stream ran over a clean and flat shelf of rock. We lay down on our bellies and drank directly from the stream. That was some of the best water I have ever tasted. We descended the pass very rapidly glissading on foot and butt making it to Colchuck Lake around 6:30pm. The hike out to the car was long and we finally reached the trailhead around 9:30pm. On the hike out, we were already talking about when and how we would come back. After a long drive down Hwy2 in the rain, we made it back to Seattle around 12:30 dreading having to go to work the next day. This was a marvelous trip in some of the most inspirational alpine terrain I have ever seen. It was almost dream-like. This poem (one of my favorites from a college literature class) kept coming to mind: I dreamed I was a god last night. Melting the winter snows with my warm breath. Bending low over snowy mountains with the black sharp scattered fir and pine, breathing, “Haaaaaaaah” -Gary Snyder Have fun and post a TR when you get back. Cheers, -Alpinfox

Yeah, I carry a couple of Kokanee cartridges with me at all times too!

I'm looking for a straight shaft baby. Hammer. I said no tool jokes!

If'n you gots a third tool to sell, send me an email. No "Tool" jokes please -Alpinfox epfox@softhome.net