JayB

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quote: Originally posted by z: Nobody is going to refute that washington kicks ass over colorado... ...except for the traffic and the weather. I've lived in both places for a while and those are two things that absolutely suck about (western)Washington.

quote: Originally posted by AlpineK: I lived there and there is good climbing, but PNW kicks COs butt anyday in my book. You should see what they call glaciers there. Dude - what are you talking about! The glaciers in the park are huge. I was on one just a couple of months ago and it was at least the size of a couple of football fields with a crevasse that was at least a couple of feet deep. You could really twist your ankle in that thing if you weren't careful! Seriously though - one thing about Colorado that really does suck is the lightning that plagues the entire state during summer afternoons, especially on the front range. It usually starts blasting away by 12:30 or so. This really sucks in the park, where it can snow until early July, and by which time the lightning has already started in a big way. About the only time you can climb the big stuff safely is a one or two week interval in mid-September when the lightning is tapering off and the odds of snowfall are relatively low. And as long as I'm on the topic, other things that suck are a twitchy continental snowpack, and the long intervals between powder days. The snow's great when it comes in, but the freshies are much more consistent in the PNW. Plus the terrain is better out there - nothing that compares to Crystal Mountain's Backcountry terrain or the stuff at Whistler/Blackcomb. Even the "legendary" back bowls at Vail are weak by comparison. The only area's where Colorado has a clear edge over the PNW are the sunshine and the ice. The fact that you're closer to Utah, Wyoming, and New Mexico is a plus as well. Anyhow, my three year tour here will come to an end shortly so I'll have to resign my membership in the Colorado Booster's society before too long....

quote: Originally posted by trask: I have a pressing Colorado related question. Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that climbers from Colorado seem to be always pickin' and snipein' at the PNW climbers. What gives there anyway? They also seem to have a lot more tree sap stuck to their forearms. Am I wrong here? Examples?

Hey - anyone out there know any details about the "Ice Climbers Stole My Dog!" story that the guy by Michelmoon Falls is telling everyone. I've heard of access problems caused by noise, litter, etc but this is a first.

I’m with you on the whole property rights thing, Erik, but I thought that I’d go ahead and add some more information about the property in question. I'm certainly not advocating trespassing or otherwise violating property rights, but established precedents can and should be taken into account in situations like these. Sometimes there’s a longstanding agreement between landowners and climbers, and when it changes abruptly and without notice climbers can be caught off-guard. People have been accessing Gillete Falls in this manner for as long as people have been climbing ice in Colorado, and until now the property owners ( members of a private fishing club who own the property that the falls are accessed through, but probably not the falls themselves) have had a very good working relationship with climbers. The members of the fishing club rarely, if ever use the property in winter, and the deal has always been that as long as climbers remain quiet, considerate, and clean the access would remain open. Accordingly, that’s what Burns, who makes a point of informing climbers to remain off of climbs that are closed elsewhere, states in his book. Moreover, the property that the gun wielding fellow was on when he accosted the climbers belongs to the club, not him, but apparently to access the club’s land you must cross his – but I doubt that he pulls a gun on the men who belong to the club and their families when pass through his property every day during the summer. Have relations between climbers and the club deteriorated to the point that they’ve deputized this guy to defend their land – unlikely but perhaps they have. In that case a sign informing climbers of the situation at the entrance to the road and/or just asking the guys to leave and tell their friends not to climb their would have sufficed. Were the theatrics with the gun, deflating the tires, and the rest of the shit that went down necessary? I doubt it – I think I’ve met the guy who posted the note before and he was polite to a fault. The fact that he took the time to get the word out (on two separate message boards) and prevent other climbers from accessing the falls without the landowner’s consent seems to bear this out. Judging by the looks of the guy’s pad and property, the behavior of the dude with the gun resulted from a guy who hardly ever finds himself in a postion to exert authority on anyone confronted with a rare opportunity to do so and not being able to contain himself. If he was really interested in keeping people off of his land he’d post a sign and that would take care of it – but when the guy isn’t counting the teeth he has left, polishing the chrome on his camaro or cooking up a fresh batch of meth in his trailer, pulling a gun on people and chewing them out probably provides a welcome diversion from his usual routine, and bossing around the same people who he would normally have to greet in quite a different fashion if they were to meet elsewhere is probably too rare an opportunity for him to pass up. Anyhow – the point of my post wasn’t to berate landowners for enforcing their property rights (although I apparently lacked the self-control necessary to pass-up the opportunity to rip on an aggressive mullet), just to get some funny/interesting stories out of people who ran into trouble on the way to a climb when they weren’t expecting any. [ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

quote: Originally posted by pope: JayB, I know what you're trying to do here....trying to get me to engage in some of the petty squabling I've just condemned, trying to get me to degrade myself by trading insults with you in some kind of emotional bolting row. But I won't do it......YOU PIECE OF SHIT! Just kiddding. Good night. That was pretty good. Just checking to see if you were paying attention. But hey, I'm not such a bad guy! We're not so different, you and I - we must have something in common. Hmmmm....(stroking chin)....I wore WWII era wool pants for a long time before converting to Schoeller. I may even go back to them after hearing about the heroic knee-paste maneuver that they made possible. Actually, I just plugged in the word "Bolting" into the search function and dredged-up some of the old threads on the subject. After reading through all of your posts there I couldn't resist throwing that in. Good Night Yourself,

quote: Originally posted by pope: ...now I'm irritated. . Did someone place a bolt somewhere?

A variation on the theme of man-made objective hazards. Some friends of mine were quite nearly killed while descending a Couloir on Pikes Peak's north side when one of the guys on the road-crewstarted plowing ice/snow/rubble down it. The best part is this is supposedly still the customary practice up there. SKIERS ON PIKES PEAK FACE HIDDEN MAN-MADE DANGER ! When the spring skiing season begins in Colorado many skiers will be anxious to ski those steep couloirs and snowfields that were too risky during mid-winter. The risk of avalanche is more predictable and the highway opening up for the season makes them much more accessible. But when enthusiasts of the sport venture onto Pikes Peak they may encounter a deadly risk factor that is not presented by nature. Last spring (May 1999) four experienced mountaineers set out to descend the Cog Couloir (also know as the Railroad Couloir) from the summit of Pikes Peak. All of them were employees of the renowned mountaineering shop "The Mountain Chalet" in Colorado Springs. John and Ched were seasoned telemark skiers and climbers. Aaron and Lou were snowboarding and were guides for the "Pikes Peak Alpine School" where they led snow and ice climbing trips on the very terrain they were about to ride. They all wore helmets, avalanche beacons, and carried ice axes and shovels. Not only did they know how to use them but professionally trained others in the use of this equipment. The Cog Couloir begins just a bit down the northeast ridge from the summit and descends into the "Y" Couloir which begins from the summit itself and the parking lot there. It is about 45 degrees in steepness with maybe a 50 degree section. The group's timing was perfect for mother nature. It was between 11:00 and 12:00 when the snow had softened from the night's freeze but not so much that it was about to let loose. They began their run one at a time and then paused part of the way down where the Cog entered the "Y" Couloir. Fortunately they were all regrouped at this point and no one was skiing when they heard the roar of debris coming down from above. Instinctively they dove for what little cover they could find along the rocky sides of the couloir. Within seconds huge chunks of snow, rock and ice came careening down. Ricocheting like giant pinballs off the walls of the couloirs they sounded like cannonballs whistling by overhead in the air and thundering when they struck. After a minute that felt more like an eternity it all stopped and they dared to stand up and look around. Skiers and climbers try to avoid such exposure by planning their trips carefully around temperature, the time of year, the time of day, recent wind and storm history and previous experiences with the route. But all is not certain and sometimes you have to duck and pray when the "heavy artillery" starts pounding around you. The group thought that this was such a time. Maybe a cornice let loose. Maybe freeze-thaw conditions loosened a boulder. Maybe another skier they hadn't seen set it off from above. They cautiously prepared to finish skiing out into the "Y" Couloir when suddenly the roaring noise began again just as before. Again they dove for cover and again chunks of hardened snow and ice the size of television sets went whizzing by. Lou began to vaguely remember some account of another group that had suffered a similar fate on the mountain. He began to recall a story about some snowplow driver actually pushing the snow from the donut shop's parking lot on the summit down the "Y" Couloir to tumble over a thousand vertical feet upon whatever and whoever might be down there. Here they were at the junction of the Cog and the "Y" Couloir and it seemed a bit strange that the barrage was repeating itself. Could it be a snowplow? Could a driver actually be so thoughtless as to push it all down on them into the huge chasm known as the bottomless pit? The third barrage convinced them all that this was not natural. It came again after about the same length of time as before with the same amount of debris from roughly the same source…the top of the "Y" Couloir. Had they skied the "Y" Couloir they'd be dead. Had they been just a bit further down the Cog and into the "Y" they'd be dead. Thankfully they had all been together just to the side of the main path where the pounding was not as great. Cutting off the remainder of their descent they exited across rock to get out of harms way and climbed back up to the summit. As they moved away from the area they heard several more slides roaring down the "Y" in similarly timed waves. Upon reaching the top, employees of the donut shop confirmed that the plow had been at work and that the driver had driven off down the Pikes Peak highway just five minutes before they inquired about the incident. They walked over to the top of the "Y" Couloir and there, right at the edge was a huge snow bank. It was clear that as snow was added to the top the excess would tumble down the northeast face of the America's favorite fourteener. The backslope of the snowbank was continuous with the top of the "Y" Couloir and it was essentially a pile of icy snow chunks that were just scraped up. Although it hadn't snowed recently, the plow had been clearing the thawing hardpack of the parking lot. Bruce Hamilton, the operator of the "Pikes Peak Alpine School" became concerned for his customers' safety not to mention anyone else on the mountain when he heard about the affair. The four involved opted to let Bruce write a letter to inform the Pikes Peak road crew of the incident. Assuming it was just a one-time error of judgement on the part of a plow driver he expected the cooperation of the road crew to exercise more care. Almost a year later I called the highway maintenance crew of Pikes Peak and spoke with Preston. He recalled the incident and the letter from Bruce. When asked what has been changed as a result he said that the snow bank has been moved back from the edge somewhat but that there was really no other place to put the excess snow during times of heavy snowfall. I asked if any signs were posted to warn skiers and climbers. Preston answered that the highway's permit with the Forest Service only extends 150 feet on either side of the road. I took that to mean that they did not have the authority to post signs at the runout of the couloir where climbers would begin their ascent. Certainly they could post one at the top where skiers would start. I asked him how skiers and climbers would be able to find out when the plowing would occur so they could avoid it. He suggested that they call 719-385-PEAK (7325) and hit the appropriate button after listening to the menu to reach the highway crew. When I asked him if he was aware that the Pikes Peak Alpine School had a permit from the Forest Service to use that side of the mountain he answered that he was not aware of what permits the school may have with the Forest Service. Asking a lawyer with the Colorado Attorneys General's office about liability if there were an injury or death resulting from the parking lot's snow removal actions I got an interesting answer. The state and all city governments within the state have "sovereign immunity" which means you can't sue the state (or Colorado Springs which manages the Pikes Peak Highway) without the state's permission. The governor can waive this and allow a lawsuit to proceed. Gov. Romer did in a case where the state highway department rolled a boulder onto people in cars driving below. The lawsuit was successful and the victims' families won. One can only guess at what the governor would do in the hypothetical case of a skier/climber being injured/killed by parking lot snow removal on Pikes Peak. Since the event would happen on Forest Service land that would involve yet another complication. If the highway department doesn't have a big liability problem here perhaps they have a moral obligation to at least warn others who they endanger. During the months of April and May there are dozens of people skiing all over the peak. Most of them are customers of the Pikes Peak Highway and have payed $8 - $20 per vehicle to use it. While it's true that a fraction of those skiers attempt to ski the terrain below the parking lot the school is bringing folks up there on a more routine basis. Let's face it, not everyone is up there just taking pictures and eating donuts. If you are thinking about taking some runs anywhere on Pikes Peak please be aware that it is not a ski area, there is no ski patrol, obstacles are certainly not marked, there is no avalanche control and trails are not groomed. Frequently the snow is so wind packed or frozen so hard that your skis won't even make a mark in it. If you fall on this surface you could take off like a bar of wet soap. Check the runout below you to see if you'll smash into rocks or trees below. Know where you're skiing. It's easy to get confused and start down a run only to find it ends in a cliff. You may want to climb an extreme run before you ski it. Like any other backcountry destination you should be aware of potential avalanche danger as well, carry the recommended equipment and know how to use it. The road makes this mountain accessible to hoards of skiers and boarders who otherwise would not be there. As you can imagine there have been many deaths and injuries over the years. Some of the victims were experienced and prepared. Don't be lulled into complacency by the party-like atmosphere that sometimes occurs on a beautiful May weekend. And finally, if you think you're skilled enough to do something as steep and dangerous as the Cog or "Y" Couloirs and you think you have the mountain smiling on you that morning, watch out for the plowman. Dave Sauer

Okay - I've got another one from along time ago. Some friends of mine were quite nearly killed while descending a Couloir on Pikes Peak's north side when one of the "Rangers" started plowing ice/snow rubble down it. The best part is this is supposedly still the customary practice up there. SKIERS ON PIKES PEAK FACE HIDDEN MAN-MADE DANGER ! When the spring skiing season begins in Colorado many skiers will be anxious to ski those steep couloirs and snowfields that were too risky during mid-winter. The risk of avalanche is more predictable and the highway opening up for the season makes them much more accessible. But when enthusiasts of the sport venture onto Pikes Peak they may encounter a deadly risk factor that is not presented by nature. Last spring (May 1999) four experienced mountaineers set out to descend the Cog Couloir (also know as the Railroad Couloir) from the summit of Pikes Peak. All of them were employees of the renowned mountaineering shop "The Mountain Chalet" in Colorado Springs. John and Ched were seasoned telemark skiers and climbers. Aaron and Lou were snowboarding and were guides for the "Pikes Peak Alpine School" where they led snow and ice climbing trips on the very terrain they were about to ride. They all wore helmets, avalanche beacons, and carried ice axes and shovels. Not only did they know how to use them but professionally trained others in the use of this equipment. The Cog Couloir begins just a bit down the northeast ridge from the summit and descends into the "Y" Couloir which begins from the summit itself and the parking lot there. It is about 45 degrees in steepness with maybe a 50 degree section. The group's timing was perfect for mother nature. It was between 11:00 and 12:00 when the snow had softened from the night's freeze but not so much that it was about to let loose. They began their run one at a time and then paused part of the way down where the Cog entered the "Y" Couloir. Fortunately they were all regrouped at this point and no one was skiing when they heard the roar of debris coming down from above. Instinctively they dove for what little cover they could find along the rocky sides of the couloir. Within seconds huge chunks of snow, rock and ice came careening down. Ricocheting like giant pinballs off the walls of the couloirs they sounded like cannonballs whistling by overhead in the air and thundering when they struck. After a minute that felt more like an eternity it all stopped and they dared to stand up and look around. Skiers and climbers try to avoid such exposure by planning their trips carefully around temperature, the time of year, the time of day, recent wind and storm history and previous experiences with the route. But all is not certain and sometimes you have to duck and pray when the "heavy artillery" starts pounding around you. The group thought that this was such a time. Maybe a cornice let loose. Maybe freeze-thaw conditions loosened a boulder. Maybe another skier they hadn't seen set it off from above. They cautiously prepared to finish skiing out into the "Y" Couloir when suddenly the roaring noise began again just as before. Again they dove for cover and again chunks of hardened snow and ice the size of television sets went whizzing by. Lou began to vaguely remember some account of another group that had suffered a similar fate on the mountain. He began to recall a story about some snowplow driver actually pushing the snow from the donut shop's parking lot on the summit down the "Y" Couloir to tumble over a thousand vertical feet upon whatever and whoever might be down there. Here they were at the junction of the Cog and the "Y" Couloir and it seemed a bit strange that the barrage was repeating itself. Could it be a snowplow? Could a driver actually be so thoughtless as to push it all down on them into the huge chasm known as the bottomless pit? The third barrage convinced them all that this was not natural. It came again after about the same length of time as before with the same amount of debris from roughly the same source…the top of the "Y" Couloir. Had they skied the "Y" Couloir they'd be dead. Had they been just a bit further down the Cog and into the "Y" they'd be dead. Thankfully they had all been together just to the side of the main path where the pounding was not as great. Cutting off the remainder of their descent they exited across rock to get out of harms way and climbed back up to the summit. As they moved away from the area they heard several more slides roaring down the "Y" in similarly timed waves. Upon reaching the top, employees of the donut shop confirmed that the plow had been at work and that the driver had driven off down the Pikes Peak highway just five minutes before they inquired about the incident. They walked over to the top of the "Y" Couloir and there, right at the edge was a huge snow bank. It was clear that as snow was added to the top the excess would tumble down the northeast face of the America's favorite fourteener. The backslope of the snowbank was continuous with the top of the "Y" Couloir and it was essentially a pile of icy snow chunks that were just scraped up. Although it hadn't snowed recently, the plow had been clearing the thawing hardpack of the parking lot. Bruce Hamilton, the operator of the "Pikes Peak Alpine School" became concerned for his customers' safety not to mention anyone else on the mountain when he heard about the affair. The four involved opted to let Bruce write a letter to inform the Pikes Peak road crew of the incident. Assuming it was just a one-time error of judgement on the part of a plow driver he expected the cooperation of the road crew to exercise more care. Almost a year later I called the highway maintenance crew of Pikes Peak and spoke with Preston. He recalled the incident and the letter from Bruce. When asked what has been changed as a result he said that the snow bank has been moved back from the edge somewhat but that there was really no other place to put the excess snow during times of heavy snowfall. I asked if any signs were posted to warn skiers and climbers. Preston answered that the highway's permit with the Forest Service only extends 150 feet on either side of the road. I took that to mean that they did not have the authority to post signs at the runout of the couloir where climbers would begin their ascent. Certainly they could post one at the top where skiers would start. I asked him how skiers and climbers would be able to find out when the plowing would occur so they could avoid it. He suggested that they call 719-385-PEAK (7325) and hit the appropriate button after listening to the menu to reach the highway crew. When I asked him if he was aware that the Pikes Peak Alpine School had a permit from the Forest Service to use that side of the mountain he answered that he was not aware of what permits the school may have with the Forest Service. Asking a lawyer with the Colorado Attorneys General's office about liability if there were an injury or death resulting from the parking lot's snow removal actions I got an interesting answer. The state and all city governments within the state have "sovereign immunity" which means you can't sue the state (or Colorado Springs which manages the Pikes Peak Highway) without the state's permission. The governor can waive this and allow a lawsuit to proceed. Gov. Romer did in a case where the state highway department rolled a boulder onto people in cars driving below. The lawsuit was successful and the victims' families won. One can only guess at what the governor would do in the hypothetical case of a skier/climber being injured/killed by parking lot snow removal on Pikes Peak. Since the event would happen on Forest Service land that would involve yet another complication. If the highway department doesn't have a big liability problem here perhaps they have a moral obligation to at least warn others who they endanger. During the months of April and May there are dozens of people skiing all over the peak. Most of them are customers of the Pikes Peak Highway and have payed $8 - $20 per vehicle to use it. While it's true that a fraction of those skiers attempt to ski the terrain below the parking lot the school is bringing folks up there on a more routine basis. Let's face it, not everyone is up there just taking pictures and eating donuts. If you are thinking about taking some runs anywhere on Pikes Peak please be aware that it is not a ski area, there is no ski patrol, obstacles are certainly not marked, there is no avalanche control and trails are not groomed. Frequently the snow is so wind packed or frozen so hard that your skis won't even make a mark in it. If you fall on this surface you could take off like a bar of wet soap. Check the runout below you to see if you'll smash into rocks or trees below. Know where you're skiing. It's easy to get confused and start down a run only to find it ends in a cliff. You may want to climb an extreme run before you ski it. Like any other backcountry destination you should be aware of potential avalanche danger as well, carry the recommended equipment and know how to use it. The road makes this mountain accessible to hoards of skiers and boarders who otherwise would not be there. As you can imagine there have been many deaths and injuries over the years. Some of the victims were experienced and prepared. Don't be lulled into complacency by the party-like atmosphere that sometimes occurs on a beautiful May weekend. And finally, if you think you're skilled enough to do something as steep and dangerous as the Cog or "Y" Couloirs and you think you have the mountain smiling on you that morning, watch out for the plowman. Dave Sauer [ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

quote: Originally posted by JayB:[QB]I’m with you on the whole property rights thing, Erik, but I thought that I’d go ahead and add some more information about the property in question. I'm certainly not advocating trespassing or otherwise violating property rights, but established precedents can and should be taken into account in situations like these. Sometimes there’s a longstanding agreement between landowners and climbers, and when it changes abruptly and without notice climbers can be caught off-guard.QB] Erik - I'm still with you here, but I must confess that I am having trouble finding the logical connection between my post and your response. Maybe the message was lost while I was amusing myself by ripping on mullet-man. Sound like we're coming from the same place though. The key word is precedent. Not all rocks/icefalls have to be climbed, of course, but if the landowner and climbers have worked out an agreement that's held for 25 years, why not climb it? That's been the case until 01-19, and now that the situation has changed I'm sure that the climbers around here will respect this guy's wishes and stay away unless a new access agreement can be hashed out.

"Never try to beat a dick in a pissing contest" Senecca? Confucious? Or that kid Chuckie from Mrs. Emery's class who ate lots of playdough. Sage words whatever the source. However if you must reply AlpineK's got it right. Be a man, say what you've got to say, and take the the heat. [ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

I saw the post below on R&I concerning a new "objective hazard" found en-route to one of our local icefalls. Anyone out there have a similar story to tell about run-ins and/or access problems they've run into? Colorado (posted by WideId) Colorado (posted by WideId) ---date climbed: January 19, 2002 Don't climb at Gilette Falls. There is a man with a gun who will try to stop you. He will likely also call the Sherriff and let the air out of your tires. Do not follow the directions in Cameron Burns' guide as they will have you passing directly over this man's property. Do not try to find another way in as his property extends quite a ways around his house or he has decided to become the vigilante enforcer of everyone's property rights around there (including the fishing club on which we most certainly were traveling). We have a message for Mr Burns: please correct this mispublication ASAP. Mr Gun also has a message: "Tell him he's an asshole."

Saw another museum piece in action at the Mount Lincoln icefall this weekend - a tool that looked like a tube-pick mounted to a standard carpenter's hammer. Must work though, as it's owner mentioned that it saw action on a successful ascent of Polar Circus. Now it's been relagated to third tool status, having been supplanted by a pair of Quarks. Pretty impressive guy - still leads WI5 pretty comfortably in his early 50's.

01-19-01 Update: All of the above still applies, with a big new line coming in just left of the main flow. Temps have been in the single digits to low teen range for at least a week so the ice that's no longer flowing is as brittle as plaster of paris. As always, the main flow is excellent, and just keeps getting fatter. It'll probably be in until late May if current trends continue.

One of the things that I've done quite a bit of out here is spend time at altitude. I've hiked and/or climbed my way to 14k about 30 times and spent alot of time at 12K or higher on skis. Everyone is different, of course, but in my experience going higher faster has always (significantly) aggravated the symptoms of altitude sickness, rather than preventing or alleviating them. As far as the body's responses to altitude go, I'm no Charles Houston or anything...but my understanding of the current medical consensus was that the physiological changes that occur at altitude are precisely what enable the body to adapt to the lack of oxygen at those heights, and that by skipping the rest days one is merely depriving one's body of the chance to adapt properly and increasing the odds of altitude sickness. This may not matter for the folks who got lucky in the genetic lottery, but for just about everyone else(restatement of the obvious to follow shortly)... the odds of getting laid low by the altitude increase in direct proportion to the rate of one's ascent. For my part, even though I live at 6000 feet and can get to 14000 feet in a single day without too much discomfort, a night at 10,000 feet or so usually makes the process quite a bit more pleasant. FWIW I've also found that guzzling 4 liters of Cytomax and a downing a pack o' Goo every 40 minutes or so really help me at altitude also. [ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

quote: Originally posted by Marcus Engley: I like the bomb coil, for pitching the rap lines in windy conditions. m Anyone care to explain the nuances of the bomb-coil? Sounds cool, I've just never heard of it until now.

quote: Originally posted by crazyjz: I have a number 4 Friend that I bought at REI in 1979 that came over on the "first boatload". I have mass Friends that I boought before 1985. That's pretty sweet. Hand-machined by Ray Jardine?Encouraging as well - maybe if my stuff lasts that long a day will come when I no longer have to ponder donating plasma and/or hanging out on on ramps sporting a "Will work for Pro" sign to get my hands on all of the gear that I need. I'm only sort of joking. I (really) unloaded and stacked 2 semi's full of alfalfa-bales to get the money to buy new plastics and a couple of dry ropes this fall. The gear is great but the nasty case of green lung that I picked up in the barn is killing my cardio-output.

quote: Originally posted by Charlie: There are more routes that were stripped- the 2 sport routes to the right of party in your pants just to name a couple. Also, I replaced 3 sets of anchors with hangers, slings, and rings- when I went back last weekend, someone had taken the slings and rings. I may have a suspect. What's the deal here? Sounds like we're not fortunate enough to be dealing with someone who has to fit a long commute and/or a job into his regular hardware-theft schedule. Hopefully this sort of thing will let up as the weather warms and the crowds become more consistent over there.Hopefully by modifying the hardware and making this fellows by-now-well-honed theft process a bit more inconvenient and/or time consuming, and or replacing the hangers frequently enough to render his effort futile, we'll persuade this fellow to ply his trade elsewhere (Boulder )and keep the place safe.

What's the oldest piece of gear that you use and why do you stick with it? Still do the job? Sentimental reasons? The oldest gear I've personally seen in use was a mega old-school wood-shafted Choinard piolet used in tandem with crampons of a similar vintage, both weilded by a partner of mine on the AI2 bit of Kiener's Route on Long's. His reaspons for using the equipment rather than mounting it above his fireplace were mostly sentimental, and of course the gear was more than adequate for the terrain that we encountered. While I am fairly shameless about using gear the best gear that I can afford - it was sort of cool to see the retro-gear in use. I would have had to draw the line at hob-nail boots and hemp rope, however. The oldest piece of climbing equipment that I still use (other than biners and such) are a pair of LaSportiva Enduros from '95 that passed their prime long ago. I still keep them around for alpine routes as they're so loose that I can wear socks AND footwarmers in them with some room to spare. Anyhow, I'd be interested in hearing what sort of gear some of the self-annointed old-schoolers keep on the rack. Bonus points for Beef Lozenges and Puttees.

For commercial guided climbers on any peak, it's Caveat Emptor.

quote: Originally posted by mattp: It is probably a good idead to assume that your beacon won't save you, and to try to evaluate the hazards without counting on being dug up, but if such a premise leads you to think you and your buddies don't have to practice using the beacons, you are making a mistake. I don't think that is what anybody here was suggesting, but I just thought I'd add a plug for being sure you are good at using the equipment that just might save a life. Good point - and often overlooked perhaps. I've always thought it best to assume that if you get caught in an avalanche, it will kill you, no matter how well prepared you are - and to plan your travel in avalanche terrain accordingly. Having said that though, I'd also go on to say that you're better off with a beacon, shovels, etc than you would be without them, and that most of us would be alot less likely to dismiss their utility as we lay suffocating below a pile of avalanche debris. That seems to be one of the conclusions that the fellow above came to, and I figured it would be worth sharing his story with the group [ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: JayB ] [ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

...with the notion that transceivers are just body recovery tools.

I bet this guy would disagree.... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: 2001-11-24 Submitted By: Luke Edgar Place: Mt Rainier State: WA Country: USA Fatalities: 0 Activity: SNOWBOARD Summary: !!! Amazing recovery!!! 1 snowboarder caught, completely buried Date: 11/24/01, Mt Rainier, WA--1 snowboarder caught, completely buried(except for small piece of binding), found by visual clues and probing, dug out uninjured in approximately 5-6 minutes. 9 LIVES This is a backcountry snowboarding story of how I lived to tell you about this backcountry snowboarding story. Usually people who make this many mistakes don’t get the chance to tell the story, so here goes. Yesterday, November 24th, was the first day of the 2001 season for me and I wanted to go backcountry. Baker and Crystal were opening up the 25th, but I didn’t want to wait in long lift lines for tracked up rocks and my body needed conditioning that only earned turns can give. I was going up to camp Muir at about 10,000ft on the S. side of Rainier solo or not. I knew the route well, knew it would be crowded and knew it had very little if any avalanche danger. I sound confident and cocky – I was. The night before my good buddy and touring partner Gorio called me and was in. Between the two of us we’ve done this tour over 40 times. I brought my compass, transceiver, probe, shovel, first aid/repair kit and enough food and clothes for the trip including an extra night if needed. If I had any concern at all it was of spending an extra night on the mountain, and even that was so faint I consciously didn’t bring a map or wands knowing I could dig in and survive. The trip from door to door is about 12 hours so I told Gorio I’d be at his house at 4am. We were at the Longmire gate at 630am and were told the gate probably would not open until 11am due to snow, though very little snow had fallen overnight. We had breakfast and debated between our options, but with most roads closed in and around Rainier our only option was to drive to Hood and ride there. I guess you could call it a lucky break but the gate opened at about 8am and we were in the Paradise parking lot getting ready by head up shortly after. While packing Gorio told me he had not really slept and forgot his transceiver (mistake #1), no biggy to me, my decision to go on was made without a second thought. We were first on the mountain and broke trail as the wind and little bit of snow had wiped clean any signs of an up track. We were still in the trees and lower section of the mountain, but the wind was serious even at this elevation (avy clue #1), which meant it would be even more ferocious above tree line. At one point Gorio and I were together when a gust blew both of us 2ft back. Wishing I had a facemask we climbed on. Our first stop was going to be an old roofless shelter at the top of the steepest section of the climb, about 1500-2000ft from the parking lot and 3000ft from Muir. As we approached the wind was in our face and several times we had to lean to the ground to hang on. We finally had to take our skis off and scramble. Two skiers we met in the parking lot, Jimmy and Sam, had caught up to us in the shelter. We were out of the wind, but without a roof there was a constant swirl of snow in the air. Any pack, glove or exposed hand was instantly covered or filled with snow. We ate and drank hot tea. Gorio and I were still in for going to Muir as Jimmy and Sam decided to head down and ski terrain less windy. We made it about 200ft from the shelter and ran into some climbers on the way down, they had spent the night in tents at about 8000ft and said it was like camping in the jetstream. I was impressed. My spare pair of socks that I’d tied together around my face was not working, the two knots prevented my jacket from closing completely and they really didn’t protect my exposed skin. Pressing on meant no exposed skin, so after about 10 minutes we turned back. Our first turns were awesome as we were on the leeward side, though the wind had buffeted all sides, this was a deep firm powder that was easy to board. By now we had 20 skiers, climbers and boarders in sight. The firm snow showed no signs of weakness and we did not plan on digging any pits (mistake #2). Though neither of us had headed SE of the parking lot, we could see the parking lot and snow covered road (closed in winter) heading east out of it. All we had to do was make it back to the road and ski back to the lot. Plus, we could see other skiers touring in all directions, so we were not alone. On the way down Gorio spotted some avalanche debris (avy clue #2), the first we’d seen. After about 1000ft of turns we switched back and headed for more leeward slopes to the east. Gorio spotted a great line that was tucked in next to a top to bottom line of trees; we were at the top an hour later. After windsurfing with our bodies at the top of the ridge and having lunch we rode down one at a time. I’d say we were still being fairly safe riding one at a time and keeping each other in site. In retrospect I was all too confident in the snow and my ability to react to anything the mountain could dish out. In fact I remember thinking that very thought only hours before. At the time I thought it I wondered if the mountain could sense my confidence. I would later regret that thought. We were now in the ride to the bottom with as little hiking as possible mode. As with many of the volcanoes in early or late season this means keeping your board on at all costs (mistake #3). So we were heading SW trying to make as many turns while not losing elevation, maybe even hoping to keep a line that could deposit us back in the parking lot without anymore hiking. It’s early season and I was pooped. We were about 500 vertical feet above the parking lot and maybe a ½ mile east when we started working the beginnings of a creek. At first it was a wide opening and I made some steep turns just in front of Gorio, nothing moved. We regrouped and looked at the terrain trap below as the creek got narrower and the slopes into it steeper. I could see a way out across a 100ft wide mini-bowl, nothing that big at all. It was right next to the steep slope I had just come down. I didn’t even look up to see what could cut loose on me or look down to really see where I would go if it did (mistake #4). It was a classic avy slope ready to rip and I was too close to safety and too cocky to even see it. I had just entered it, trying to cut a high line straight across it’s belly (mistake #5) putting as much pressure as my 230 lbs of body and gear could put on it still only thinking of making the high point 100 ft away without hiking. At the same time Gorio yelled "slide" I saw the snow in front of me start to move. I was only about 5 ft in and it looked like only the top 8-12 inches was moving, but for sure a big island of snow. At this point I thought I was still in control and there was no panic. I instantly turned my board back toward the direction I had come and the moving snow forced me to sit though I had hoped to keep moving as I had in many slides before. After about 20 ft I realized I was going to get forced into a narrow crux of the creek and I realized this was going to be big. Everything was happening so fast and at the same time in slow motion, I didn’t try to pull my ripcord that releases my board, or take off my pack, both would be anchors and all avy training says to ditch the gear. About this time the secondary wave of snow from above, that had a 2-3 ft crown at its deepest point in a 20 ft wide section, hit me from behind with speed. This is the last time Gorio saw me as I was buried from this point on. I traveled the next 40+ feet face down thinking I would be going down a long way not really knowing what was around the bend in the creek. I was still calm considering I was buried. I tried to reach my board to pull the rip cord but it was uphill. Before I knew it things were coming to a stop, I just managed to get my right hand in front of my face and my left hand about 10 inches away. The first 10 seconds: Oh my god, Oh my god. Keep calm, everything you’ve learned says to conserve oxygen and keep calm. I was calm for one second, and shitting my pants the next. My goggles were still on and I could see, there was light. I tried to move but the snow was cement. My body was stretched out to the fullest, as my board was an anchor with my body and pack being pulled downhill. My head was face down and well below my feet. I knew which way was was up. I tried like hell to free myself, to push up, but each time the effort would take up all the oxygen and I felt like I was hyperventilating. Then I tried to yell "Gorio" "Gorio" with the same effect. I relaxed, regained my breath, and somehow felt calm for just a few seconds. The next 20 seconds: I realized Gorio did not have a transceiver…did he have his probe??? I knew he had his shovel but how deep was I. I know from experience that avy snow is cement and digging someone out by yourself is compounded many times with each foot of snow that is on top of you. But how the f***! would he find me without a transceiver??? And if he doesn’t have his probe forget it, he has to have a probe? We’re in a hole, no one saw us and there was not enough time to get help. Fifteen minutes is all I have, all Gorio has to save me. Is this it? Am I going to die right here? What about Sara, Rielly and Ivy? F***!! I try to push again and bring my left hand closer to my face, which fills my little air pocket and mouth with snow resulting in a double dose of panic. The next 2 minutes: All I can think about is my family. Reilly is 2 and Ivy is 4. How could I miss all the signs and die so early. All my backcountry experiences, training, first descents and shit talking and now I’m cemented a half mile from my car. I’m a f***ing idiot! F***!! They won’t find me until next year, it will just keep snowing and sliding and getting deeper and deeper. I try to call out to Gorio again, but my breath has melted the snow, which is now starting to freeze around my head, greatly reducing the oxygen flow. The last 3-4 minutes: I’ve given up hope of being saved 100%. I think my goggles are starting to fog as it’s getting darker and darker. All I can think about is my wife Sara and kids, the best kids in the world. I know I’ll be hurting them, hurting the rest of my family and friends. I think how I’m not going to be able to teach my kids how to love the mountains, and I think they will hate the mountains. I don’t want them to hate the mountains. I’m sad, I’m mad, I’m calm then I’m fighting again. It’s dark but I’m still conscious. I believe in god in my own way, and I ask for his help. It was weird; it felt like I was asking for my kids and not for me. I felt so sorry for them. Then I hear it, muffled and about 10 or so feet away. "Luke" "Luke" Oh Shit, Oh Shit…It’s Gorio, f***in A it’s Gorio. I could only manage one or two Gorio’s, not sure if he heard me or not but just like that with a heart attack of excitement I knew I was going to be dug out. The next 10 minutes: It seemed like it only took 10 seconds, could have been a minute I don’t know, but Gorio got my face free and I gasped for air screaming "you saved my life, you saved my life". Gorio says I was pretty out of it saying all kinds of shit, all I remember is feeling euphoric and telling Gorio how he saved my life. Gorio was moving fast as we were still in a very dangerous place. It took a minute to dig out my board and get it off my feet when Gorio accidentally knocked some snow in my face blocking my breath. I yelled "Gorio, Gorio my face" as my arms and head were still locked in place. The helplessness was overwhelming. The strange thing was my goggles were not fogged, I guess the no fog stuff I put on the inside and outside the night before worked and it was my brain that went dark. I wanted to hug Gorio and Gorio wanted to get the f*** out of dodge, we had to hike back up the slide path to get out, as below us was an even bigger terrain trap. My head was pounding from the lack of oxygen, I had no more strength left but the thought of being ripped by another slide and being able to see my family again after giving up hope was more than enough motivation to climb out. Still had one last 20ft section of exposed slope to climb across until we were in a safe zone, Gorio repacked his gear in another safe zone across the creek while I slowly made my way to it even though I was going as fast as I could. Once there I collapsed as I had been climbing the entire time since being set free. Once Gorio made it I went back into my "you saved my life" speech, hugs etc. Twenty minutes later we were in the parking lot. I’m still shaking my head. Asking questions. Felling so happy to be alive, to have a second chance to be with my family. And I can’t explain it, but feeling depressed and everything in between. Gorio said he saw the second wave coming and it hit me hard, he went to a safe spot 20 ft away and grabbed his shovel and probe and assembled them both without having to take his moist gloves off, saving time. From the point he last saw me he probed down the narrow creek avy path until he saw a piece of my ski binding on the outside of my pack, the size of a dime, sticking out. The size of a dime! In 5-6 minutes he had my face exposed to air, beautiful air. His experience was as traumatic as mine; only difference is he had oxygen. He was thinking about how he was going to have to tell Sara about me, how shitty would that of been? Sara said she wouldn’t have been mad at Gorio, it was my decisions that got me into the mess, so she would have been mad at me. So many times I’ve cheated death, before my kids I needed to get that rush to feel alive. I’d get it in the mountains, riding bikes, anything to get the rush and feeling invincible. Many times I’ve paid the price with pain, coming close to the edge and living to tell about it. For the most part I’ve mellowed out since having kids. Yesterday I paid the ultimate price, I crossed the line so far I was dead in my own mind. It’s still too close to really know what kind of perspective this will give me, but guaranteed, perspective will be gained. To my family, Sara, Ivy and Reilly; I love you more than anything. More than solo trips, more than first descents and more than life itself. To my family and Sara’s family who would have had to deal with the mess, help raise my kids and the entire trauma this would of caused you, I’m sorry. To Gorio, what can I say or do? For my family and for myself thank you. I’ll ask the backcountry community what the going rate is for full body retrieval and life saving while putting yourself at risk. And to you I’m sorry for putting up my blinders. To anyone who reads this and travels in the backcountry; read the signs, they’re out there if you look for them. Take the training, learn from the training and use the training. Always bring you’re tools; transceiver, probe, shovel and most importantly your brain. This was a teeny tiny slide I was in practically next to the parking lot. I could have been swept down into a creek hole and buried 20 ft deep or over a cliff, through rocks or trees and all totally helpless. I’m not going to stop living life, but I plan on making sure I’m around to enjoy it with my family and friends as long as humanly possible. I still have a few of those 9 lives left, but I plan on saving the rest for a long, long time. Loving life, Luke Edgar

quote: Originally posted by Heinouscling: Hey all you sorry bastards, I'm outta here! I'm off to find me some ice! See Yaaaa! -Heinous Hey Heinous: I'm going to climb some ice by my house before work tomorrow at Helen Hunt Falls. If you're looking for ice and would like to join me, here are the directions: Seattle, WA to Broadmoor, CO - Dist 1414.6, 21 Hrs, 58 MinI-5 S 5 at Rainier Exit 164, WA 3.0 3.0 0:03I-90 SE 82 at 90 Exit 3/110, WA 107.0 110.0 1:44I-82 SE State Boundary OR/WA 135.9 245.9 3:52I-82 S 82 at 84, OR 10.9 256.8 4:02I-84/US-30 SE State Boundary ID/OR 197.1 453.9 7:07I-84 SE State Boundary ID/UT 275.4 729.3 11:21I-84 SE Echo, UT 118.9 848.2 13:10I-80/US-189 NE State Boundary UT/WY 31.0 879.2 13:39I-80 E 25 at 80 Exit 8/359, WY 365.4 1244.6 19:17I-25 S State Boundary CO/WY 8.8 1253.4 19:25I-25 S 25 at 115 Exit 140, CO 160.4 1413.8 21:56Local Roads SW Broadmoor, CO 0.8 1414.6 21:58 State TotalsState Total Toll NonToll TimeCO 161.2 0.0 161.2 2:33ID 275.4 0.0 275.4 4:14OR 208.0 0.0 208.0 3:15UT 149.9 0.0 149.9 2:18WA 245.9 0.0 245.9 3:52WY 374.2 0.0 374.2 5:46 Trip TotalsToll Distance 0.0Non Toll Distance 1414.6 ------Total Distance 1414.6Total Time 21 Hour(s) 58 Minute(s) Follow the signs to Cheyenne Canyon and look for the white Toyota Pickup in the parking lot [ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: JayB ] [ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]