Jim

Ah, but there lies the crux. Why would Detroit want to offer a change to the status quo. The SUV craze is making them mucho bucks. That is their one goal - make money. They had to be forced to put in seat belts for crying out loud. Business rarely actc is ways that benefits individuals (safety, clean air, fuel economy). Individuals cannot make a meaniful choice if there are none.

Oh no Dru, we are the good guys. We don't manipulate other countries policies for the benefit of oil - well except for that Iraq thing, and Chile, and Panama, and Saudia Arabia, and Israel, and...

Seems to me, that if you're objective, it's difficult to logically argue the man-made effects of global warming. Actions to cut back will mean change, and a lot of folks are unconfortable with that. There are some big oxen that would be gored with ruducing oil consumption. It's interesting to note that BP (yes the oil guys) instituted, on their own accord, the Kyto Protocols. And guess what? After an initial capital investment they ended up saving 600 million per year in costs. Which will pay for itself in a couple years. Ignorence is short-sighted. Do what you can. I do - including placing bumper stickers on some of those really shameless monster SUVs that read: "I'm changing the climate - Ask me how. I take great pleasure in seeing these tool by while on my bicycle commute.

I off to Whitefish MT for work and play next week via a stop in Bend (long story). I've never skied at Big Mt. and would appreciate any info on BC routes off the chairs - I have tele gear and don't mind a good tromp to get to good powder. Also - I've never been to this part of MT so if I'm there a week is it worth taking the ice gear to hunt something up within a couple hours of Whitefish?

Muff – sorry for the confusion. You are correct that outside the reservation Tribal members must abide by the applicable land use law; and Cave Rock is on US Forest Service Land. I was merely commenting on JayB’s analogy he was making to Mormons and Native American Tribes. As always these threads wander. But the main thing that is different is that because there are established treaty rights the US government is obligated to consider Tribal claims regarding sacred sites, etc. Sometimes it’s very complicated – look at the Kennewick Man court case. Linked to the treaty rights are a number of US laws and Executive Orders regarding how Federal agencies must consult with Tribes on land use issues. While some folks (as viewed in this thread) have a strong opinion regarding these land use conflicts, which they are entitled to, there are a number of laws in addition to the Treaties that specify how these government (US) to government (Tribal) interactions take place.

You're being very selective in quoting the document. I'm going to pass on this one, got to ride home in the rain.

Yea, usually these things can be figured out with sensible compromise. I don't know about this one, IMO, from reading the document. Maybe this is one that just isn't appropriate for mixing of the cultures. Ignoring a reasoned assessment is not going to help the Access Fund, or climbers get a responsible reputation. You win some, you lose some.

Well I do know a bit more than my first post because I read the USFS document. I'd suggest you take the time to look at it. The US recognizes the involved Tribes as an independent nation. This is nothing new in Tribal relations, it's what allows Tribes to manage, or mis-manage their lands in a manner it sees fit. And a major background point here - the Mormons are under the rule of the US government (like it or not), the recognized Tribes are seperate nations. The US has government to government relations with these Tribes. I'm not involved with the project, so I don't know the minutia about these Tribes treaties. But you could find that info if you're really interested. Can't spoon feed you dude.

Well, you may what to take some time and read the document in question at http://www.r5.fs.fed.us/ltbmu/management/projects/cave_rock/CR_Chap3.pdf . It’s actually written quite well, and after reading it I’m leaning towards the Tribes concerns. The place is well established in Tribal history, very special, and well documented. While I don’t believe in arbitrary restrictions on climbing, this one may have merit. And quite frankly, the Access Fund's argument is a bit lame. The history of climbing there doesn’t seem too sensitive to natural resource or Tribal values. Yea, yea climbers picked up a bunch of garbage, but there was extensive gardening in the cave and paving the cave floor and moving rocks around for “safety”. It’s not just an outdoor climbing gym. Not every rock feature has to become a yuppie playground.

I'll ask around Muffer.

No I can't. I don't know anything about this particular site, the Tribes down there, or the issues. On sites I've worked with in the PNW it usually involves land management agencies such as BLM, Forest Service, and Reclamation. On one project in Idaho a climbing area was closed down because of Tribal concerns. But they gave a little and agreed to what the local climbers thought was a reasonable compromise.

Trying to keep on topic here, Trask, it's not true that Tribes can just point to any landscape feature and say - keep out the white guys. I work with Tribal interets in resource management planning. There is an internal Tribal process (usually) and an outside land management agency review. What bugs me esides some of the nasty rhetoric here, is the lack of knowledge about what really goes on in land management decisions like these. A little research and thought can be revealing. There are some good examples of cooperation, but there are closed-minded folk on both sides of the issue.

I can't comment on the specifics of Cave Rock, I just don't know anything about the facts. But the analogy of the Mormans is a stretch. The difference is that the US govenrnment has signed treaties with recognized Tribes that stipulate provisions for protection of sites of religious importance. I don't think we have any current treaty with the Mormans, though we did twist their arm about the multpile wife thing to let Utah in the Union. And I suspect there are times when the Tribes over-reach, as any political body tries to. Though I wouldn't lose sleep over the loss of access to another Euro-rap bolted outdoor climbing gym. As usual I suspect there is a balanced view of this floating around out there.

Live, consume, be silent, die.

Cool, thanks

Have to agree with the problem. Seems like it's telling me that I've gone over the 1,000KB allowed thought the file is well below that.

Head over to Holden and take a few of Bonnanza - post whatever you get.

I kinda doubt it will be ready now. Maybe after next week's storms it could be good (please, please). But the approach is avy prone. You may want to wait until spring when it's a hoot to ski.

I also think there's nothing like climbing up and back down to a good rest while working out moves to help you get the confidance when you're leading at your limit.

No, I think this applies to sport or trad. I've spent many a time on a small ledge above my last piece working out the next sequence to another rest spot.

I think that Peter's summary of some fanatic Islamic interpretation of of the Koran are prime examples of reglion used for slanted purposes, I would argure that there is nothing inherent in Islam, or any other religion. Just lots of folks willing to justify their actions. And actually Islam has no corner on the violence market. Need we mention the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Puritans, the violent right-to-life movement, etc. If you look at the history of occupation in Jerusalam the Islamic rulers were much more accommodating of other religions compared to the Jews and Christians. Gotta love those Buddhists-

Live, be scared, consume, be silent, die.

Come on. You're sure you're not reading from the script?

Good answer. Just like big trucks.

You should check it out - it's not really about guns, but folks perspective in the US. He does try to look at why we have like 300x more deaths by guns/per capita than comparable countries. Seems were quite the fearful population. No matter where you come from he tweaks your perspective.