Jim

Ah, the we know better argument and the end around truth and democratic values. Now that is a cherished argument. And the simple explanation for why we are over there? Please, spare us another picture of the flaming towers and the intended link to Iraq.

I can only anwser for my views not some "movement". No. I would recommend staying and fixing it since we screwed it up. That does not diminish the argument that we should not have gone there in the first place, against the military recommendations and for nothing more than the neocons belief. I really don't know if things can be salvaged there. The military was dismantled by us and is part of the insugency. The training of police is grim. We're thinking of buying out the contracts of over 10,000 trainees because they can't be trusted. The troops are squeezed and overextended. It does not, however, seem appropriate to abandon the Iraqis after destroying their country. It is a mess that could have been avoided- and there is no ethical or noble way out. Ya gotta love that quote about -" I'd rather be fighting them over there than over here". WTF - like the Iraqis were ready to send a flotilla?

Certainly speculation has to play a part in dealing with future scenarios regarding world politics. But that doesn't mean you have to ignore facts. All the reputible sources said Iraq's ability to make nuclear and chemical weapons was dismantled. The Bushies fabricated information to suit the neocon agenda. There are no facts to back up your argument. Just because these were on his wish list, though he had no capability, it was an imminent threat. This is a laughable premise. If the neocons believe so much in their agenda of changing the world order through force, then why can't they just make that argument and come clean. Instead there is just a lot of arm waving and scare tactics. So instead of concentrating on more advanced threats, such as our buddy Pakistan selling nuclear equipment and capabilities to Korea, Iran, and others what do we do. Spend much money and world political capital chasing down nonexistant wmds and turn Iraq into a recruiting poster for Ben Laden. Do you really believe it will end well in Iraq - that it will be a nice Jeffersonian democracy? Gimme a break. The likely outcome is that the Bushies will declare "mission complete" start to pull out to cut losses, and state that building a stable country "...is now in the hands of the Iraqis". Watch and see.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Bush administration has been carrying out secret reconnaissance missions to learn about nuclear, chemical and missile sites in Iran in preparation for possible airstrikes there, journalist Seymour Hersh said Sunday. The effort has been under way at least since last summer, Hersh said on CNN's "Late Edition." Iran has refused to dismantle its nuclear program, which it insists is legal and is intended solely for civilian purposes. (Full story) Hersh said U.S. officials were involved in "extensive planning" for a possible attack -- "much more than we know." "The goal is to identify and isolate three dozen, and perhaps more, such targets that could be destroyed by precision strikes and short-term commando raids," he wrote in "The New Yorker" magazine, which published his article in editions that will be on newsstands Monday. He said his information on Iran came from "inside" sources who divulged it in the hope that publicity would force the administration to reconsider. "I think that's one of the reasons some of the people on the inside talk to me," he said. Hersh said the government did not answer his request for a response before the story's publication, and that his sources include people in government whose information has been reliable in the past. Hersh said Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld view Bush's re-election as "a mandate to continue the war on terrorism," despite problems with the U.S.-led war in Iraq. Last week, the effort to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq -- the Bush administration's stated primary rationale for the war -- was halted after having come up empty. The secret missions in Iran, Hersh said, have been authorized in order to prevent similar embarrassment in the event of military action there. (Full story) "The planning for Iran is going ahead even though Iraq is a mess," Hersh said. "I think they really think there's a chance to do something in Iran, perhaps by summer, to get the intelligence on the sites." He added, "The guys on the inside really want to do this." Hersh identified those inside people as the "neoconservative" civilian leadership in the Pentagon. That includes Rumsfeld, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and Undersecretary of Defense Doug Feith -- "the sort of war hawks that we talk about in connection with the war in Iraq." And he said the preparation goes beyond contingency planning and includes detailed plans for air attacks: "The next step is Iran. It's definitely there. They're definitely planning ... But they need the intelligence first."

The key word here is believe. Substitue imagine as all factual evidence pointed in the opposite direction. This, in essence is the argument for the benefit of all of Bushies policies, and the nodding followers repeat it by rote. We believe it because he says so and he says so because he believes it. We're

This is rich. We're not talking about any war, just this one. Good feint though. I don't see that you've addressed any question regarding what is the benefit to the mass of people - not the "top quintile of earners". Sure their getting a benefit - no argument there. And too early to tell the outcome of Iraq - true. Will it be civil war when we pull out and will it be days or months before a strongman secular government or a Muslim cleric government is set up? Even the leaked CIA assessment is predicting a grim outcome. I don't think anyone mentioned Afganistan - not issue there.

I went to the Best of the Telluride Mountain Film Festival last night that was a fund raiser for Ski-for-All, a program to get disabled folks out in the snow in the winter and other activities in the summer. Only two of the eight films were decent, one about climbing and base jumping in Mali and another on John Muir's unsupported crossing of Australia on foot. Similar to the Banff films, there seems to be a diminishing focus on anything about climbing or even mountain sports. There was the requisite film of folks on downhill gear doing hot tricks to cool music. Boring. Seems that 10-12 years ago the Banff films had some great stuff, some by amateur folks on some interesting adventures. The occassional kayaking and sailing adventure is fine but why is a film on guys playing basketball while they drive across the US allowed in a mountain film festival anyway?

I'm still not getting any answers that make sense. That's and intresting example regarding hourly wage but why not use an applicable example? What is the logic of going to war in Iraq and spending $1.5 billion per week while at the same time 1) lowering taxes for rich 2)passing a medicare drug plan that benefits the drug companys 3)siphoning off 10% of Social Security and going trillions more into debt Seriously. If you're just the normal working stiff, what are you getting out of this besides more debt for you and your kids, making a hornet's nest out of Iraq, with much less to spend on education, housing, and health care at home. It's not logical. That's the confusing part - I see no logical argument on how the Bushies' policies are helping the vast majority who voted for him. Oh - I forgot - Freedom is on the march. Is that the correct response. Does anyone really believe that there will be a productive ending in Iraq?

I start laughing when I just think about this one.

McAlindon TE and others. Glucosamine and chondroitin for treatment of osteoarthritis: A systematic quality assessment and meta-analysis JAMA 283:1469-1475, 2000. [Full-text version is accessible online for JAMA subscribers.] Tanveer E, Anastassiades TP. Glucosamine and chondroitin for treating symptoms of osteoarthritis: Evidence is widely touted but incomplete. JAMA 283:1483-1484, 2000. [Full-text version is accessible online for JAMA subscribers.] Reginster JY and others. Long-term effects of glucosamine sulfate on osteoarthritis progression: a randomized, placebo-controlled trial. Lancet 357:251-256, 2001. Update on glucosamine for osteoarthritis. Medical Letter 43:111-112, 2001. Product review: GLUCOSAMINE and CHONDROITIN. ConsumerLab Web site, accessed Jan 22, 2002. Joint remedies. Consumer Reports, Jan 2002. Vital Nutrients recalls Joint Ease & Verified Quality Brand Joint Comfort Complex because of adverse health risk associated with aristolochic acid. News release, May 24, 2001. Study of the efficacy of glucosamine and glucosamine/chondroitin sulfate in knee osteoarthritis. NIH Web site, accessed Jan 22, 2002. The Puritan's Pride mail-order division, which has frequent "2-for-1" and "3-for-one" sales, sells products that cost only $4 to $5 per month (1,500 mg/day).

I'm not sure how the above ramble applies, but I think the basic question posed was if the majority of folks are voting against their self interest then what are the factors for making their decision. Are there "bigger" issues than their self or children's interest such as "family values", whatever that rehetoric that means. So there is only a couple of agurments to be made: 1) that the orginal premise is wrong and somehow the war and it's costs, the tax cuts to the rich, the history making deficit, and coporate give-aways are good for you (from any logical process this seems doubtful); or 2) that folks are aware of the compromise on other issues but buy the rhetoric and ignore the facts, or have key issues -abortion, protection of marriage, blah, blah, that outweigh the other policies that negatively affect them.

While another general name-calling horseshoe tossed in the pit, you've managed again to avoid addressing any issue.

This about sums it up for me too.

And what sound logic might that be? And if there were any why did the administration, rather than have that reasonable dialog with the public, choose instead to use lies and scare tactics. And the results are less than promising. From current polls the public is not happy with the Bushy's Iraq policies. I do think that for many folks abortion and those vague "values" over-ride considerations for other policies they find hard to swallow.

That's in simple terms, but true. Maybe unsophisticated would be a better choice of words. Or that the priorities they hold - keep gays out of my neighborhood and make abortion illegal, just rise above all other concerns no matter the larger economic or moral outcomes. I consider myself fiscally conservative and socially progressive. I've had several conversations with friends that voted for Bush and see a basic conflict. They seem to agree with Bush's rhetoric, but not with his policies. So is that "dumber than dirt" or misplaced optimisim I don't know. I do know that this admistration's policies are not in the self-interest of the of most of us, unless you're in the extreme upper income brackets, the oil industry, or a defense contractor. The press is sleeping, the populace is happy if they can still fill up the SUV for under $75. Unfortunately we will likely see better in hindsight, after Bush and his cronies have left us with his mess to clean up.

There's where my gas tax could go to! Actually there are some catalysts in prototype that will get you hydrogen direct from methane or ethanol or whatever with no need for electricity. Also its a lot easier to store hydrogen than it is to store electricity. So you can have a solar cell that wouldn't itself be able to power a car making hydrogen, then fill up a car and run it off the stored hydrogen that solar cell made.

An item most folks seem to miss is that with alternative fuels, such as hydrogen, they have to be mass produced using electricity, which has to burn some type of energy. Conservation seems like a good way to go, but with the oil guys in charge they have only one way on their mind - more drilling. I be ok with a dollar a gallon tax to put towards kick-starting some conservation and alternative fuels projects. One place to start is the mileage standards in the US, which are pretty absymal. The consistent theme of this administration is that facts just get in the way. Whether it's a scientific evaluation, reasons to go to war, or domestic policy such as social security, the lies are continual and any dissent in the ranks is squashed.

I may be working on some projects in the Alaskan Artic, along the Bearing Sea where, because of the lack of pack ice, the shoreline is getting severely eroded and the feds are actually looking at using FEMA funds to MOVE a number of Native villages. Yikes!

"...Meanwhile, the administration is doing its best to impose its political will on the scientific community at home. According to The Washington Post, James Hansen, head of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, accused a senior administration official of trying to block him from discussing the dangerous effects of global warning. And Bush's top science adviser, John Marburger, has warned researchers that they risk losing their federal funding if they publicly oppose administration policies. As the administration tries to force scientists to bend to its political will, the buildup of climate-changing gases continues, with the United States spewing an astonishing one third of the world's total. Scientists warn that Arctic sea ice is melting at an alarming rate and that it could be reduced by one-half as soon as the end of this century, causing severe disruptions that range from the extinction of animal and plant species to flooding in coastal regions across the globe. " http://www.registerguard.com/news/2005/01/24/ed.edit.globalwarming.phn.0124.html Interesting article on Artic warming: http://www.adn.com/alaska/story/6075279p-5966322c.html

Sat - trail run at Cougar Mt., found long-toed salamanders already in mating ponds, even early for them. Yoga class. Sun. - climbing at the gym, watched my partners send 11b while I try to get my finger strength back. Watched a bad football game.

5 months does include the slight reinjury I did after giving it only a month rest. I would stress caution. If it hurts, don't use it. Rest, ice, mobility exercises.

Yea, 60 deg and rain.

Unfortunately I was working away with the masses. It might have said "President Bush - Can U Read This?

Tweaked mine and it took 5 months to recover. I now always warm up, stretch, and tape. Bouldering (in the gym) seems to be the only time I've gotten tweaked, so I usually avoid it. Good luck and maybe save it for the outside season.

Last I checked Democracy is supposed to be a messy discussion, not a sing-a-long. It's alway easier to characterize demonstrators as "fringe" rather than have one of those discussions.