carolyn

Hey thanks.Ive been considering moving out to Washington in about a year...which is why I asked. HA! Most people want to know about economy, government, employment...and here I am asking about the ice! (priorities, eh?!?!) Michael-Banff is just about the same driving distance as washington. We have an abundance great ice with a lot of variety here in the northern- most part of the Midwest, so I wont complain at all! Sounds like if you search for the ice you will find it out there...which really is part of the adventure! Thanks again, carolyn

We are pretty lucky here in the midwest to have fairly short/easy approaches (for the most part) and obviously no avalanche danger. And yes, we even have a number of multipitch climbs! (although, we probly have you beat with the cold temps! ) Just wondering what the majority of climbs are like out there....are they usually long approaches? often have some avalanche danger? are there many roadside climbs? Long drive from the seattle area? some of the recent pics have made me curious... One of these days I'll post some pics of what we have out here if people are interested in seeing them.

Nice photos! Thanks for sharing!

I got myself back out on the ice...some short "city" climbs both friday and sunday. Found a few virgin climbs along the bluffs of the mississippi, 40 degrees, sunny, and eagles soaring overhead. Glad your shoulder is feeling better too erik... my neck and shoulder are still pretty sore, but doing MUCH better!!!!

well, i wish I had followed my gut and said I didnt want to simul climb. But the leader is someone I respected- and still DO respect a great deal. I figured he wouldnt put us in an unsafe situation. the person climbing with me had only simul climbed once on rock. His tools were NOT very sharp - which he brought up right before we started climbing. I emphasized to stay NEXT to me and far to the right... not go above, because I knew he would be knocking down dinnerplates. He wound up below me at one point, so I took that opportunity to stand on the ledge to warm up my hands. He continued past as I started cleaning the next screw and kept trying to warm up my hands. There are so many "shouldnt have done's" involved in the situation, all leading to the incident and difficulty getting me down. I dont think there is any one person, or thing to blame. It was a combination of factors. And matt...I agree, although I dont enjoy the pain and such which goes along with being hit. I would probly be much worse off in the head if I was the one who threw it down. I can only hope that explains why my partner is acting so strange ....blaming everyone and everything else. I think there is a lot of guilt flying around between the three of us. Although, there is obviously a time and place for simul climbing, it will be a loooooooooong time before you see me climbing close to anyone! [ 03-14-2002: Message edited by: carolyn ]

Enlight of the situation I encountered this past weekend and the fact I was caught in another country without health insurance... I know I read a while ago about travellers insurance, specifically for backpackers, climbers, etc. I cant for the life of me remember if it was in a magazine or website. It sure would have been nice to have something like this last weekend...and probly would be nice in the future. Does anybody use travellers insurance? KNow of any good one's? I know AAC has rescue insurance, which I MIGHT consider as I start doing more. But the immediate emergency medical would be priority. Please no lectures on getting health insurance...Im working on it, but its not always as easy at it might seem. Thanks! carolyn

Thank you all for your replies. Its really helpful to know that other folks have gone thru the same mental process I am. It seems as if it has been very easy to discuss the "technical" aspect of what happened...how things could have been done differently, how some of it could have only been avoided by not climbing at all, etc. Much harder to get those involved to discuss how it affected everyone's mental state. I woke up this morning with my head a little more clear. Im by far ready to give up. I think back to one of the first things I said on the way to the hospital..."why the hell do I want to climb when shit like this happens?" After about 5 seconds I came back with, "why the hell do I drive my car when accidents can happen?" The answer...because I want to...because it serves some purpose for me and Im willing to accept the risks. I have control over many things while driving , as I do while climbing. There will always be those uncertainties...the uncontrollable. But if I live life focusing on the what COULD happen, Im going to miss out on a lot of what IS happening! This is not to say I wont be a little tentative or nervous, especially on the ice. But Im not going to let it stop me from enjoying what I love. Thanks again to everyone for hearing me out! Mattp...I must go back to my old ending... BE WELL!BE SAFE!!!!carolyn

Over the past month I have read a few volumes of Accidents in North American Mountaineering. In addition, hearing about the various accidents around this country this ice season. Ive put a lot of thought into different scenerios that could take place and how I might deal with them. Because I play things waaaaaaaaaaay on the safe side, I never really thought about how I would react if something happened to ME. I always think about how I would take care of the 'other' person. I had the unfortunate opportunity to find out this weekend as I was involved in a bad situation. The fortunate thing is I am actually here typing this post and other than some intense physical pain and a bit of emotional distress I am fine. I will explain the situation briefly.... I was climbing with someone with a great deal of experience, in addition to my regular climbing partner. The more experienced person took the lead. My partner and I climbed side by side. Ive done this a couple times before and am not very fond of it. About 75ft up the climb I needed to stop at a ledge and warm my fingers up because I couldnt hold my tools (btw...according to the locals later that night, the area had been hit by a blizzard. They even closed the road to a majority of the climbs the next day). My partner kept climbing. I was looking down at my hands, cursing loudly as they went thru the "ying yang" phase when I was suddenly hit with no warning by a block of ice on the back of my neck. It was estimated to be about 15 pounds and fell from about 20-25 ft above me. I remember the feeling and will NEVER forget the sound. I think I blacked out momentarily. I checked my fingers and toes immediately and was able to move them. Dizzy, developing a splitting headache and numbness in my right arm I was stunned.Communication was poor between the leader (who couldnt see or hear well due to the weather) and my parnter (who can never hears a f'in thing anyway). I stood on the ledge stunned, knowing I needed to get down immediately but couldnt get that accross to the leader. It was a long proccess getting me down to the ground, and eventually to the car (thank goodness for many of the short approaches around here). Xrays showed nothing broken in my neck- just bruises/ tissue damage. I must have also been hit near the shoulder as I have a mild seperation. Now, I have discussed the situation in great detail with all those involved and a few others to figure out what could have been done differently. However if any of you would like more details and discuss this as a learning experience for myself or others, I would be happy to do so either in this post or pm. What I am really after in this post is some feedback on how to deal with the fear after something like this happens. Although I could be wrong, I imagine being injured in a climbing accident would affect anyone's mental attitude the next time they go out to climb. I went back out today (we had driven 7hrs to climb this weekend, so I wasnt about to sit in the hotel room!). I also knew it was important for me to get back out as soon as possible. The approach included climbing a few short waterfalls to the larger one, which I was fine with - in fact other than the pain, I ejoyed it immensly. Once we got to the larger climb and the leader began, I found myself 'on edge' the rest of the day. I chose to climb (the dr didnt reccomend it, but said it shouldnt cause any further damage, as long as I could deal with the immediate pain). Is this 'on edge' and fear normal? Ive had momentary thoughts in the past 48 hrs of "maybe i should sell all my gear and quit while Im ahead". But I REALLY DONT want to do that. I think about where I would be had I looked up at that split second the ice hit...it would have nailed my forhead or other parts of my face. I wonder if it had been more serious and with the poor communication what would have come of the situation and my health. I am SOOOOOOOOO grateful that neither of the above happened and that I AM okay. I dont think a minute has passed since the accident that I dont thank my lucky stars! Anyone relate or have thoughts on how to deal with the mental game?

<--thats a bud, not a guiness golf season is starting here in minne-NO-snowta! I feel better now that stopped lurking and posted something! [ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: carolyn ]

quote: Originally posted by Figger Eight: Carolyn...you should be more careful with your money if you're spending it on some joker who tells you never to belay off your harness. No kidding!I worry about the person who hears this during a course and takes it literally. I wont be cutting off my belay loop anytime soon.

Thanks for the input everyone. Like I said before, after reading a different post I was beginning to get the feeling I was lacking info in order to keep the leader safe in the case of a fall. I just wanted to make sure. Lambone, yes...I was actually told to belay a leader or someone on tr off the anchor..."you should never belay off your harness". And, cpt...the above statement was spoken by a guide who I hired. When I have a question about something (especially when it involves safety) I gather info from a variety of resources, and then get my ass out there, using my common sense to see what works best. Im sorry if this topic is redundant or boring for some. I really DO appreciate those who have contributed to the discussion, and especially those who have tolerated my numerous other questions in the past. Thanks again, carolyn

Thanks for sharing! Did you send this off to someone? We are fortunate here in MN where we dont have any fees yet (*knock on wood*) for the boundary waters or other National Forests. You are required to get a free permit, tho. We pay 20 bucks or so for an annual state park permit in order to park in their lots (or $5/day?). But its easy enough if you want to park on the side of a road somewhere instead.

didnt the guys ski on the wildflower today/night?

I would rather have a cold bud (which I do) than a cold guiness And dru-thanks.I found it awkward to belay off an anchor, but some of the reasoning did make sense (that would be taught by mr.parent)

alright, so I feel bad asking this question NOW , after I have already belayed many leads. However i would hate to have someone get hurt because I didnt ask. So.... The first time I was asked to belay a leader I was told to keep enough slack in the rope in order to not pull them off. The person leading, and those who I have belayed since then probly had falling furthest from their mind (as they were climbing something way below their level). Common sense says to brake if they fall. Well, reading johnny's post on mind control some people talked a little more about belaying. It made me wonder if I was missing some knowledge that would prevent the leader from further injury in the case of a fall. examples: quote: by chuck:did your belayer take in rope while you were falling? That can cause the falling climber to whip into the wall harder and quote: by allison:I will say that we were all new enough that we didnt have the 'dynamic catch' in our belaying repetoires at that point. I know how to do it now, tho... Also, it was mentioned a few times about falling and hitting your belayer. I was recently taught to belay (on ice and I imagine it could be useful for rock as well) off an anchor (tree, screws, etc) vs your harness. THe reasoning...if a large chunk of ice comes falling (or person ) you can still hold onto the rope and move far away. I really dont see that being much different than if you are belaying off your harness, tho. In addition, if you had to get help for some reason you would be able to get out of the system and lock your partner off. Not something you can do while belaying off your harness too easily. Just wondering what others think of this and pro's/con's Im missing before I make a decision to belay this way or not. Thanks! [ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: carolyn ]

You find them pretty slick, too?I thought it was just my klutzy ass! (then again, maybe it still is).Just last week as I went sliding down, preparing for the fall, I miraculously managed to stay on my feet. ALthough my helmet swung around my pack and smacked me in the eye And yes, I find I need to tighten them before I climb. If I do so too early it cuts off circulation and my feetzies get a bit chilled. Its actaully kind of a pain. Although sometimes I have found that fine line where they are just right. This was one of the reasons I considered having them stretched. Im holding off as long as possible and playing around with different ways of lacing.

I dont have much else to go off of because these are my first pair of boots. Ive found them to be pretty darn comfortable and light. APproaches to ice are pretty short around here, but havent experienced any problems walking in them. In fact, it seems the longer the day the more my foot seems to mold into them and feel comfy. As lambone pointed out the liners are not lace-up. I was having problems keeping my heel in place, so wound up buying a pair of inverno liners which work great for me. They also give you that added warmth which I imagine the original liners dont. The only real concern I have had over them is the fact that they seem to get punctured easily. While in canada a few wks back I met two guys who were quite shocked when they found a hole in their brand new alphas (it was the first time they had worn them)! At that point I had noticed a large, deep scratch in mine. Just this week I found two holes, one (small), which has gone all the way thru the plastic. I know its possible to put holes in plastic with your crampons. But this seems a little excessive. Overall, I do like them after making some adaptations to meet my needs. Good luck!

Quite the entertaining post! Lets make it simple...I bartend tonight.drinks are on the house.Your all on the guest list.See some live music.Do your little moondance till your hearts.And, climb all the ice ya want the next day. Now, you just have to get here

Welcome Home! Glad your back safe and sound! Hey, what happened to your toe warmers?!?!?!?! later, carolyn

First of all, thanks to those of you who offered feedback and suggestions. I made a decision yesterday and purchased my OWN pair of sabretooths. I kind of think I chickened out a bit by not getting some mono's. On the other hand i needed my own pair of crampons, Ive really liked using the sabretooths, and I know they will work well for me in many situations for years to come. I will probly try and borrow or demo some mono's thru the rest of this season. If ya have anymore input, feel free to share it, as Im still in the market for a pair at some point in the near future. Ibex-hope you got home safely. Thanks for scoping out that area w/me today. I will let ya know when we figure out the safest access to the top...or when I can sucker someone into leading it TG-if ya read this when you get back...DONT send the crampons...send more beer instead! Thanks again!carolyn

oops, your answer wasnt there before I started responding, todd. Now, let me re-read it and let it sink in a bit more.

Hey lambone-THANKS so much for the tip (no pun intended ) on filing the tools. I rounded the top of one before heading out this morning. Compared to the other one it was a 100% improvement! quote: Did you have to buy seperate Inverno liners as well? Sounds spendy... yes, the inverno liners were expensive. But I got a stellar prodeal on the boots. The overall cost for both was still cheaper than the boots alone if I didnt have to pd... And, it works! Todd-These are actually my first tools (and I stand by my decision! ). Im sure there are times I swing too hard (and too much ). As I mentioned above, rounding the top as lambone suggested helped tremendously. I will keep your suggestions in mind if it doesnt continue to work. Thanks! quote: however, if you choose to go with a mono, buy one that allows you to put the point under your big toe (the m10 gives you this option). Sorry, can someone explain the importance of this to me? quote: also, if youre considering the rambocomps, note that they are one of the best crampons out there, but only on really steep/technical stuff (6's, etc.). so basically, if youre not always climbing top-notch routes (if youre usually on 3's and 4's), the rambocomps will actually climb worse than almost any other crampon out there, as you can pretty much forget about french technique, low-angle descents, etc. go with the m10's. can you elaborate a bit more on why you think this is? Guess I have never heard that theory before. [ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: carolyn ]

Dru-I have a friend who swears by the M10's.My understanding is the M10's, bionic, terminator, rambo's, etc are basically the same. Im not deadset on one or the other to be quite honest. shawn-you coming out this weekend or what?!?!?! If so, mind if I try yours out? Lambone-Ive pretty much been using the sabretooths this season and I REALLY DO like them (a lot!)! Im am acquiring a long term rental of some rambo duals , so it doesnt make sense as of yet to get the sabretooths. Im sure I will purchase a pair in the near future, tho. I wound up with alpha's and use an inverno liner instead of the alpha liner. The lace up system in the inverno liner (a size smaller)helps prevent my heel from slipping and seems to give me enough room (for the most part) in the forefoot so I dont have to stretch them. I usually have to play around with the laces a bit on longer days. I also cant have too much bulk. As of right now a thin sock and a toasty toe warmer is just right. Overall Im pretty pleased with them. I will add, I somehow managed to put a fairly deep and large scratch in them already. Two guys I met up in canada put holes in theirs the first day out with 'em. Hmmmm?!?!?!?!? The rages are working alright, too. Only problem I have with them is that they seem to stick in the ice TOO much. I need to figure out a way to file some of the teeth down to prevent that, I think. Now, if I could only find a glove system which works! In time, I guess. Anyhooo....Its snowing and I have the day off...think Im gonna go out and boulder on some ice before it gets dark! Thanks for the thoughts thus far. [ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: carolyn ]

as I await for a pair of dual points to arrive at an undetermined date (could be late season) Ive decided I want to stop 'borrowing' crampons and just get a pair of my own (although I really like these sabretooths Ive been using lately ). I dont want to invest in another pair of duals, so Ive been considering biting the bullet and just purchasing some monopoints (been eyeing rambocomps for a while now). My concerns...although I know and understand the benefits of monos it still makes me quite nervous to only have one point in the ice. Ive just begun to really start trusting and using my feet. Seems like I would have to start all over with that. Just curious what others experienced when switching over. (and I know I can get conversion kits for some, however at this stage of the game I really dont think I would care to tinker around with that. I would just keep and use 'em as monos) Thanks, carolyn

Ya, so let the "newbie" shine in me during this post. I went up to Montreal River, Ontario (about 1.5hrs from Sault Ste Marie, MI) for about 5-6 days where I was promised ice. And ice I got! The weekend involved an "ice festival" where climbers, mainly from canada and Michigan gathered to climb. I was the lone Minnesota representative, but found it quite easy to find partners to climb with (thanks to a PNW'er, jay who was in the area visiting! if you read this... I have one of your quickdraws in case you would like it back!) We found an area with some wet, but fat ice - single pitch to start with on Saturday. Moved over to a chimney which was a bit more thin and wet. COming from someone who started on ice late in the season last year and only having the opportunity to climb maybe 30-40ft in height, this 70+ft WI4 climb (I think thats what everyone agreed upon) was definately a fun challenge for me! Another short climb awaited us on our way back to the road which was very thin, but fun. I bit the bullet and stayed past the festival for some classes. I learned a ton! I learned about leading (single and double ropes) and did a lot of following long, single pitches. I climbed on verglass ice, vertical, low angled, mixed, pillars. I received a great deal of info on safety (which is much desired after hearing about so many accidents as of late). I realized what type of clothing works best for me and what i need to change in order to spend hours, even days on the ice. Oh! And other than a little tweaking left to do, my my boots are working great! Thanks to those who offered suggestions in a past post! One day we rode by snowmowbile about ten miles, then snowshoed a ways in order to gain access to a new found area of cliffs overlooking lake superior. AMAZING! Walls and walls of climbs - single and multipitch, tons of variety. Never climbed. I made my first attempt at true winter camping, where I set my tent on the shores of lake superior for the duration of my stay. For the most part, it went well. However I did begin to feel a bit clausterphobic after a few nights in the tent(please tell me that passes w/time and experience) and woke up one morning not being able to feel my f'in toes! I know there are places with bigger/longer climbs, however I found a climb does not have to be BIG in order for it to be hard (even for those with years of experience and great skills). Guess the midwest isnt all that bad! I have a bunch of pics but dont know how to link them to the post, so feel free to pm me and I would be happy to send them your way.