Dwayner

Eric.....I understand that you are a smart and talented guy in many ways, but your constant references to "baby Jesus" really aren't that cute...in fact, it's offensive to a lot of people and your accompanying comments are a demonstration of your profound lack of knowledge in the subject. Are there blonde-haired, blue-eyed Jews? Plenty of them. Go to Israel and you'll see many who would physically qualify as Aryan poster boys and girls. Did Jesus look like that? Who really cares? One can only speculate. You can paint his picture black, tanned, white or anything else you like, it's his teachings that are important. Although they differ in their interpretation as to who he might be, I think that both Jews and Christians would agree that Jesus was a good guy, despite some of the bad stuff his followers have done in his name. You can call the Bible a piece of "fiction" if you like, but there is a lot of real history in there apart from theology. Few historians would doubt that there was a revolutionary rabbi named Jesus ("Yeshua" in Hebrew) preaching in Palestine under Roman occupation in the first century A.D. (In fact, we can call it "the first century A.D. due to the birth of baby Jesus.) This whole topic leads to the old, old question......what does this have to do with anything related to climbing?? ["Dude! It's SPRAY, man! Anything goes!"] shalom, Dwayner

Flash...you don't know from rabbi! The guy on the left is none other than Rabbi Marc Gellman who is part of "the God Squad", an inter-faith counseling duo. His goyishe buddy is Monsignor Thomas Hartman. Here's an action shot:

A number of accident victims been hurt from bystanders jumping in thinking that the car/truck/vehicle is "going to blow"! It's from watching too much TV where seemingly every car crash erupts in flames. People with serious back injuries and other trauma have been yanked and then drug away to a "safer place" when in fact, they require the most delicate of care.

Necro......you'd don't know from God.

Drinking "buddy" Greg comments about my reality check: "Typical drivel from an aging swinger wannabe..." OK, pal. Then how come you called me the next day and asked me if she had a sister so we could "double date"? Also, asking the bartender (whom you rudely addressed as "Elton John, Jr." )at "Richard's Hey There!" whether they could switch the music to a "a little Garth Brooks" was a major faux pas and we're lucky that we weren't asked to leave. I told my buddy "pope" about the evening and he had one suggestion for you: wear a wedding ring when you go into a bar and you'll meet more women. He claims it works very well. As for the Java Jive, as far as I know, it's still open. Karaoke on Friday nights. Jungle decor. They used to have a pair of large, psychotic monkeys behind a big glass window next to the pool tables. One of them would hide and wait for someone to take a peak. Just as you were thinkin, "where are the damn monkeys?", he'd jump out and slap the glass and make that ugly monkey hissing face, complete with fangs. Dang frightening but always fun to send your unsuspecting first-time buddies up there. "Hey! Go see if them monkeys are back there!" SLAP! The Jive The Monkey The Wedding Ring And by the way, foo....here's a picture of Cynthia...she's a pro.

Some clarifications: The first bar we went to, "The Angry Sailor", is not "seedy". It's got a happening crowd and it's always a good time. Greg got a free drink there and chatted with the owner so I don't know why he'd bad-mouthing the place. The next bar, "Richard's Hey There!", was actually Greg's suggestion. He had read about it in one of those questionable Seattle tabloids. Let's set the record straight: the sturdy young lady that he referred to (her name was Cynthia, not "Shiela"), was a female body builder and ALL woman. We later just went out to her car and talked. (And she had to drive me home because that punk Greg took off because he was having NO luck with the ladies!) Here's a big tip from the pro's: if you want to meet the gals, don't be sipping some obnoxious candy drink like a vodka and cranberry while you egg your buddy on with lines like, "Dude! Check that one out! Get her over here!". Second: if you limit yourself to skinny girls and ageing cheerleaders, you're missing out on a lot of what life has to offer. The biggest lesson to be learned here: Don't go drinking with Greg because he'll get on the internet and spray the details out to random strangers. - Dwayner

Slothrop's comments would probably have been much more useful if he directed his insights directly at "the Declaration" rather than commenting on my comments. What makes this important is that this sort of "declaration" can be hauled out and put on display as some sort of big consensus whenever laws or other rules are discussed or legislated.

No it doesn't. It looks as if they are praying. You don't get it, do you, pal. Maybe it's because this topic started in Spray. I suppose it's easy to ridicule and mock things you truly don't understand.

It claims to speak for climbers in general. It does not, however, accurately define who I am nor what I may believe about mountaineering values. I'm not part of their "company" nor are a good many climbers I know. - Dwayner

Hey Jim....the Arab village you mentioned is Deir Yassin. It is a very famous incident and there are lots of conflicting stories on both sides. Here's a link, which from a pro-Israeli source, at least attempts to back up its version with contrary perspectives and citations. Deir Yassin Lots of bad deeds to go around in that region. I've spent time on "both sides of the fence" and both sides have their strong and weak points, however....they're are going to have to learn to live with each other. Dru...you're smartass comment, "rap bolt the wailing wall, that'll show them" is ignorant and rude. You obviously don't understand the profound meaning of that special place, now referred to as "The Western Wall". See all them folks...I bet A LOT of them are praying for PEACE!

I hope you all study this "Tyrol Declaration" because it could very well be used as a tool in future legislation, etc. Some of you may read it and find it delightful while I found it full of disturbing assumptions about values and what myself and others might believe. Here is my take on a few of the aspects of the "Declaration" just to illustrate how it might be more complex than it appears. These are MY responses...you're not required to agree with me. First of all, one of its aims is to "promote social development", i.e. "social engineering". Don't we have enough of that forced on us already by the schools and government. Do we need that imposed on us in our recreational pursuits? Freedom of the hills. The Declaration states as one of its functions to: "define today's fundamental values in mountain sports" I see no particular consensus amongst climbers on many issues. A brief survey of opinions expressed on cc.com regularly demonstrates this. "We feel a special responsibility towards the indigenious populations of mountain areas, whose right to a dignified, self-determined life must be protected by all possible means." I like most local folks...but I have problem with the term "all possible means". That's a LOADED statement. The bits in the Declaration regarding solidarity, self-actualization and adventure don't speak for me. "Excellence All mountaineers and rock climbers like to tackle problems that challenge them both physically and mentally, striving for both elegant and controlled execution of the task. Many activists strive to improve their abilities. Without continual progress on the cutting edge of performance, climbing would lose much of its dynamism and fascination." Again, the authors aren't speaking for me. I climb for my own reasons, not necessarily for those described above for "all". Climbing doesn't require "progress" to be fascinating or dynamic to me. We could all revert to alpenstocks and nailed boots, or everyone could quit climbing tomorrow, and I would still enjoy it (maybe even more!). Article 2 - Team Spirit MAXIM "Members of the team should be prepared to make compromises in order to balance the interests and abilities of all the group." I'm the boss, we'll decide together if we're equals, or I'll defer to the more experienced who has the option of considering my opinion. Article 3 - Climbing & Mountaineering Community MAXIM "We owe every person we meet in the mountains or on the rocks an equal measure of respect. Even in isolated conditions and stressful situations, we should not forget to threat others as we want to be treated ourselves." The legislation of human relations! I personally don't like everything that goes on in the mountains and especially on the rocks and those practioners who offend my sensibilities will not command "an equal measure of respect". "Article 4 - Visiting Foreign Countries MAXIM As guests in foreign cultures, we should always conduct ourselves politely and with restraint towards the people there - our hosts. We will respect holy mountains and places and we will seek to benefit and assist local economy and people." Notice the condescending use of the term "restraint", as if we need to be lectured about how to hold back our gregarious selves, or lest we pop some local jerk in the chops when he rips us off. And the condescending assumption that local folks need our "superior" help and money (they don't always do though many will be glad to take your money.) [i do, however, agree with the notion that we should be polite guests and show respect for holy places.] "Understanding of foreign cultures is part of complete climbing experience." I guess I should make an effort to understand those fake Germans in Leavenworth, eh? I guess I should make sure I buy a Brat. with extra kraut before leaving that town and spend some time with one of the denizens (trying to understand them) or my climbing experience won't be complete! [understanding is good, educational and it makes you a good ambassador for your home country. The "completeness" part I find ridiculous.] Article 6 (& 7) - Emergencies MAXIM "Can you and will you help others in the event of an emergency?" My choice. "Are you ready to face the consequences of a tragedy?" Ask the same question to your average motorist. "Article 8 - Access and Conservation MAXIM We consider freedom of access to mountains a fundamental right..." Unless I own it! And while you're at it...tell that to the Pakistani's, Chinese, Nepalese, etc. Fundamental right.....I love mountaineering but that is WAY OVER THE TOP!!! As a "fundamental right", access to the mountains is way down at the bottom of the food chain. Article 9 - Style MAXIM "The quality of the experience and how we solve a problem is more important then whether we solve it..." For lots of folks, it ain't always just the journey as many people say (especially when they bail-off or fail)...I actually appreciate the summit and am disappointed if I don't reach it, although I won't do absolutely anything to get there. Article 11 - Sponsorship & Advertising MAXIM "The cooperation between sponsors and athletes must be a professional relationship that serves the best interests of mountain sports." Nobody's damn business what my professional relationships might entail. Lest you think that I'm just an angry feller, I do agree with the statement about maintaining the environment, for example: "Intactness of nature Thanks to their intensive contact with nature, climbers and alpinists develop awareness for the beauty of a healthy environment and the need to preserve its flora and fauna. "Leave no traces" has always been a key issue in our environmental philosophy. With the growing threat to fragile ecosystems in mountain regions all over the world, one of the most important commitments of the climbing community has become the protection of endangered species of flora and fauna, both in the mountains and in crag climbing areas." - Dwayner

Sorry, Alpine K....you don't know your history. Jews have been living there for 3000 years. Jerusalem was their capital from about 1000 B.C. until 70 A.D. when the Romans wrecked the city. For centuries, the territory named "Palestine" (derived from the name of some of its other early inhabitants, the Philistines), was ruled by the Ottoman Turks. Jews, Muslims and Christians all lived there though under Islamic rule. Many Jews began to immigrate to the area in the late 1800's while still under Turkish rule which ended in WW1 when it became a British Mandate territory. (The Turks were German allies). The British gave the green light for large-scale Jewish immigration and a great many came in the 1920's and '30's well before the Holocaust. Lots of farms and communes were set up and a lot of desert and swamp lands were reclaimed. And, a lot of property was sold to them by Arab inhabitants as well. The British were actually double-dealing and making contrary promises to both the Arabs and the Jews. The Arabs complained that there were too many immigrants and the Jews (a good many of them European) and the Arabs didn't always get along (cultural, religious issues, land disputes, etc.). The disputes grew and the British were in the middle. More Jews came to the area escaping the Holocaust and as refugees after WWII. After WWII with the creation of the UN, an attempt was made to solve the problem by dividing the Palestine region into two states: an Arab State and a Jewish State. The partition was approved in 1947 (although it didn't get the Arab votes) and in 1948, the state of Israel was declared. A war immediately broke out and Israel was successful in defending itself and ended up with a bit more land at the edges and a lot of Arabs ran away (some of them claim they were run off). The angry "Palestinians" of today live in refugee camps in what would have been the Arab state. Others live in the same land: territories occupied after wars in 1967 and 1973 (West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights). Israel also conquered the Egypt's Sinai Peninsua but returned it after its peace treaty with Egypt (a treaty that cost the brave Sadat his life at the hand of militant assassins.). As difficult as it may seem, I think the Arab-Israeli conflict can be resolved. There will likely always be a certain amount of violence on both sides as there are extremists on both sides that will settle for nothing less than the annihilation of the other. Hey! 20 years ago who could imagine that the Soviet Union would dissolve, Germany would be reunited, and that crappy regine in South Africa would be turned around???? It could happen!

First of all....it's ISRAEL, not "Isreal". You want to know what is real? Israel is and its not going anywhere so it would be very wise if the other entities in the region would come to their senses and make peace as did Egypt and Jordan. It was a very brave, smart and productive move for both countries. Furthermore, although their methods involve killing themselves, the so-called "suicide bombers" are (as has been occasionally pointed out), actually "homicide bombers", who get on buses, go to discos, shopping malls, pizza parlors, etc. and INTENTIONALLY and randomly kill anyone who happens to be there including babies in strollers, old folks, children of all ages, etc. The world would be more impressed by genuine demonstrations of peaceful protest rather than 30 years of violent "Palestinian" mayhem involving hijackings of airplanes, cruise ships, Olympic athletes, massacres in European airports, etc. and the stunts regularly pulled across the borders.

I just read "the declaration"/manifesto. Much of it reads like a bunch of happy, superficial noise-candy. (Who needs advice on team-unity and such? Do you need a document to define your needs and aspirations? And there are some serious implications for you sport-monkeys and others.) Before you come to any conclusions....study each paragraph and how it might apply to yourself and climbing in general....scrutinize the implications.....maybe you'll embrace it wholeheartedly, or maybe you'll find it to be a mixed bag full of notions of varying merit. Whatever you decide...don't take it for face value...it's far more complicated than that. Dwayner's opinion.

Sad news indeed, but what would you do about a bunch of maniacs hell-bent on destroying their country's reconstruction efforts? Blame Bush for suicide bombers??? You may not like the fact that we are there, but we are and if we do persevere, I predict that things will ultimately be a lot better in that region. (and some of these violent clowns are indeed presently "unknown").

I got a few insights to share about the Biblical pork prohibition. Dwayner has actually written a book that addresses this topic (among many others) and here is an excerpt. The part specifically about pigs is near the bottom. It might be interesting to a few. Staying Kosher Some of the most interesting [biblical/Jewish] laws have to do with food. This is the basis of “keeping kosher” which many Jewish people still do today. There are certain animals that are prohibited for food. Split Hooves and Cud "Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat." This includes the ever popular cows, goats and sheep. Animals such as rock badgers, rabbits and camels which chew the cud but do not have split hooves are forbidden. Pigs, which have split hooves but don’t chew cud are forbidden. Don’t eat them and don’t touch their carcasses. See Food! "These you may eat, of all that are in the waters. Everything in the waters that has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers, you may eat…But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is an abomination to you." Some of the things to avoid include eels, catfish, lobsters and shrimp. Foul Fowl! And stay away from these birds: eagles, vulture, osprey, kite, falcons, ostrich, the hawks, sea gulls, the hawk, owls, cormorants, ibis, nighthawks, water hens, pelicans, carrion vultures, storks, herons, hoopoes, bats. Sure, today we call the bat a mammal, but they’ve got wings and they fly around so they can very feasibly mix in with other big flying things. ****** "Kosher", or "kashrut", means clean or fit according to Jewish law. It applies especially to food but to other things as well. The opposite of kosher is treif! ****** Bugs etc. Don’t eat winged insects that “go about on all fours.” except for those “which have legs above their feet, with which to leap on the earth.” Locusts, crickets and grasshoppers are O.K. to eat. You should also stay away from weasels, mice, lizards, geckos, land crocodiles, chameleons and turtles, snails and moles. If meat is consumed, it is not to contain blood, and there are rules for kosher and more humane slaughtering of edible beasts. Even today, kosher butcher shops exist for the purpose of preparing meat for human consumption according to Biblical laws. Vegetables and mineral products (salt, etc.) are generally O.K. for all around consumption. Don’t Mix These Up! A real mainstay of a kosher diet is the avoidance of eating dairy products at the same time as meat products. This is based on the law in Exodus that states “You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk.” Later Jewish law forbade all mixing of mild and meat in order that this commandment not be violated. This one requires a bit of thinking because it’s not just a matter of knowing about what not to eat, but also knowing about ingredients and combinations of foods served at meals. ****** A kosher kitchen will have separate bowls and utensils for dairy and meat foods and even separate sinks and refrigerators! ****** Although it might sound like a real hassle to those not living the kosher lifestyle, it’s rigors usually prove meaningful for those who live it. The food can be great and much of it is good for you. Some have argued that a kosher diet has biological advantages. For Orthodox Jews, these laws are all taken very seriously. More liberal Jews, who tend to see their religion evolving with times, are less stringent. ****** Kosher Quiz Time! Cheeseburgers, pepperoni pizza, and a Reuben sandwich: not kosher! Mushroom pizza, fish, and hot dogs (all beef only): kosher, as long as they meet any other associated standards! ****** What’s With The Pigs? The reasons for Biblical food prohibitions have been widely discussed and there are several possible answers which might all be, at the same time, true. When you think about it, though, having cultural food preferences isn’t all that strange. Americans, for the most part, don’t eat dogs, cats, rats, horses or insects. And raw meat or fish is not the norm. Some cultures are vegetarian by religious preference or otherwise. Here are a few things to think about: * To some, avoiding certain foods is an exercise in self-control, or maybe even personal sacrifice in accordance to divine law; *To avoid certain foods can also be seen as a holiness issue. Certain things are set aside not because there are necessarily bad, but because obeying such prohibitions is an act of holiness that all similar believers share; some such prohibitions also separate believers from the practices of those who aren’t; *A classic explanation for pigs and shellfish involves health issues. Pigs can carry several diseases that can be passed on to humans. Consume some bad shellfish sometime and you will wish that you were eating kosher. Trust me on that last one! On the other hand, any animal product has the potential of bringing about human distress under certain conditions. *It has been claimed that pigs are economically impractical; that the cost to benefit ratio in terms of caring for them is in the negative. Also, unlike cattle, sheep and goats, they are not particularly easy to herd, especially if you’re on the nomadic side. Then again, pigs, like goats, have a reputation for eating all kinds of leftovers and aren’t necessarily connoisseurs with expensive tastes. *From an anthropological standpoint, it can be noted that animals such as pigs don’t fit in with the normal system of classification. Pigs have split hooves but don’t chew the cud. Eels swim but have no scales. They’re weird animals that just don’t match the others! *God says don’t eat pigs, so don’t eat them and while you’re at it, quit asking so many questions! ****** There are people today who argue for new “eco-kosher” standards that will be even more stringent regarding ingredients such as additives. They are also concerned about the ethics by which the food is produced and by whom. ******

Hey Chris T! Where d'you go? Ain't seen you in the chatter-box in some time. I hope things are better than they were last time we communicated! I liked your story about Nixon resigning.....I hate to tell you this, but it was 29 years ago, not 19!!! the exact same thing happened to me, except that I was backpacking in Montana. summer of 1974.....an interesting time...it was my second summer with a climbing interest and I had a new wooden-shafted ice axe that I took with me everywhere. (Cost me $20 new!). It was in-between my junior and senior years in high school. I attended "Kaniksu Boy's Camp" outside of Newport, WA where I learned about fly-fishing, logging and took extended hiking trips in Montana. That was also the year of Expo 74....the World's Fair in Montana....met my first citizen of the Soviet Union there...back in those days, it was like seeing a martian! anyway, I hope all is well. aloha, - Don P.S. I learned not long ago that the famous "Kaniksu Boy's Camp" is now "Kaniksu Family Nudist Camp"! oy!

Brother Ryland say: "Dwayner, these aren't caves of the limestone variety, they are hollowed out lava tuves made of volcanic rock." I realize that. I've done a lot of caving in tubes (in fact, the closest I ever came to losing my life was in such a cave.) Fellow meat-gazer Timmy: I think caves should be treated with respect, even though many of them are trashed. They are special environments and spelunkers (myself included), usually make a good effort to keep them as natural as possible. It would be sad to see some of them dismissed with the attitude., "ah....they're wrecked or chossy anyway...nobody cares...might as well sport-bolt them!". I've heard that same argument given for such places as Little Si, Exit 38 and even Vantage. I say, clean 'em up. Pull out the garbage and restore them.

In their selfish quest to climb anything boltable, some sportey's are now turning to caves???? If the abuses on your basic rock faces aren't enough to provoke official attention, perhaps this will. Keep your chalk and sport-bolts out of the tubes. What's next? Maybe some scenic subterannean stalactites with some heinously smooth crimps? "It was awesome dude! Make sure you spell my name correctly in the guide!" [My Favorite Underground Crags in Oregon: Volume 2: Limestone Classics] - Dwayner P.S. Makes me wanna puke!

Yeah or nay???? Nay!

I'm in SoCal......and I'm drunk! P.S. Downed a couple of tall cans of Mickey's in an alley behind a Ralph's market in Laguna last night. My buddy contributed half a Subway sandwich and I reintroduced to him the fine art of drink concealment with a plain paper bag. It made us fit and ready to confront our lecture duties across the street.......Yes! the good life!

Hey Slappy: here's something precious for you! By the way, "Slappy", you can't even come close to the greatness of your name-sake: the great Slappy White (rest in peace). "The trouble with unemployment is that the minute you wake up in the morning you're on the job." - the late, great Slappy White.

Erik thinks he's cute: I'll do it on top-rope. RUMR thinks he's clever: "Nor will i smack pins into an established clean/free route!! Never done that....don't plan on it either. Slaphappy.....maybe you can find employment with the thought-police. You can ban those whose views you find obnoxious and retain all the goofy non-climbing related banter....whatever you find amusing.

Petey...You're smarter than that. You understand my point. Take a poll about bashing pins on free climbs in the 21st century and that will more closely match my analogy.