Freeman

Toast, it sound like you and Catbirdseat took a pretty good course but most people would not call it "self rescue" if another party was there to assist. I think of the term in the context of Fasulo's book - how does your partner take care of you when you its just the two of you. Using only the equipment that you have with you (even more important - the equipment your partner has on her harness/pack/etc since you probably have the gear sling with you). Each of you needs to decide what you will carry with you for this kind of situation - are you each going to carry a tibloc, a couple of Purcell Prusiks, two pulleys, or are you going to improvise? All of the skills - excaping the loaded belay, raising or lowering your injured partner, stabilizing her injuries, passing knots, retriving the rope so you can go for help.... are part of the big picture, but so is thinking about what can go wrong on every climb and what will I do when it happens? Three real examples - 1- about 10 or 12 years ago, climber falls on the last pitch of Outer Space with more than half the rope out. Back injury. Partner has to get him to Library Ledge where they spend the night in tee shirts. The next day injured climber and a litter attendant were raised to the top and winched off. btw - for you 9:1 guys, we used a compound 6 :1 - a 2:1 working on a 3:1 with low stretch rope and as I recall two people did the raise with a couple more handing the belay and resetting the prusiks. 2 - about 5 years ago climber fell on the lower N Ridge of Stuart 2 or 3 pitches up. Don't remember the injuries - bad but not life threatening. One rope. Partner lower and rapped with injured climber on his back to glacier, stabilized hime and had him in pretty good condition when we got there. As I recall he was a guide from Canada and just sorta did everything right... 3 - last year, climber falls on second pitch of Razorback Ridge on Mt Stuart (some of you know these guys or remember it from cc.com) and shatters his foot. They had two 8 mil ropes and were able to tie them together to reach the glacier - passing the knot was easy because the injured party could stop at a ledge and unload it. Talking to the partner afterwards he admitted that he really didn't know what he was doing but everything just sort of worked. We airlifted them off the glacier after toeing the helicopter skids onto the snow and holding the hover. If they would have required a rescue team to hike in and lower them it would have taken 2 or 3 days. By doing everthing right the mission time for the rescue team was 38 minutes and they were off the day the accident occured. I firmly believe that everytime your partner is more than a half a rope lenght off the ground you should be thinking about how you will get her down when she falls. Get every kind of training you can and practice, practice, practice...

I posted a tr last fall on NWHikers http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1117&highlight=enchantments Time for this old man was 13 hours with a side trip up Little Annapurna and an exit thru the Rat Lakes and out Temple Canyon. We were in no big hurry - just enjoying the views.

Our rescue unit uses a satellite phone when nothing else will work - cell phones or radios. We have had no locations in the central cascades where the sat phone will not work - there are many places where we can't hit a repeater with our mobile radios. Its expensive - we pay $26 a month for the phone whether we use it or not and an exorbinate fee per minute (can't quote directly but a phone bill during a rescue is frequently $150 to $300). If its a long mission, we often will set up a mobile radio repeater so we don't have the high costs of the sat phone.

To Beck about Mt Adams; As I stated in my previous rant, in Washington it is up to each Sheriff to conduct his own rescues and to call in whatever resouces he feels necessary. We have worked with Kittitas (the summit of Stuart is the county line) and Okanogon (the summit of Liberty Bell is also the county line), as well as helping King (roughly Stevens Pass), but in general we've got about all we can do in Chelan and Douglas. The fact that we have helicopters and a mountain pilot means we are frequently asked by neighboring counties to help. We've never been called to Klickitat county however. by the way, thanks for all the positive comments from everybody - I was just seeing the negative. I know that there are a lot of problems with rescue but in general we're doing the best we can. If all we hear is criticism I promise that climbing volunteers will go away and you will be left with the fat out of shape deputies who can hardly climb onto a bar stool.

Under the Washington Administrative Code the sheriff of each county is responsible for all search and rescue missions in his jurisdicition. He can use any means available to him, including but not limited to, his paid staff, contract professionals, volunteers, and, if they agree, the military. Hovever, the "Posse Comitatus" act following the Civil War mandates that the military cannot be used for civilian law enforcement (there was an interesting issue when the military was going to be used in the NY sniper search - technically they had to have civilians on board directing the mission). We have had a good relationship with the military in eastern Washington but approval for EVERY mission is up to the base commander. In general (and I hate these generalities) they want to be in charge, use their people (including medics), do not want to fly civilians (altho they have done it from time to time), do not want to do body recoveries, and frequently do not have much experience flying in the mountains (boy, did we ever see that on Bonanza a couple of years ago). Stephan's experience on Temple this summer was a training with their night vision glasses in an area they had never been in - our group wanted to wait until first light since it wasn't life threatening. It is my understanding that the report on the Mt Hood accident found that the pilot was using an outdated density- altitude calculator (not a problem until you start pushing your altitude ceiling, which for a Blackhawk could be 10,000 ft). I'm rather proud of 30 years in our little area - we have never had anyone die once we have reached them (we have several ER docs and paramedics who climb 5.10 who are on the first response unit), we have never injured one of our people, we have the complete support of our community (we are funded by donations - including things like $16000 from the puplic to put a winch in our Huey after Bonanza, hell, our five helicopters were purchased with donations, and one individual has given in the six figures over the years). We don't own a van, instead we bring a week long Rigging for Rescue seminar for 12 of our people to Wenatchee every year) and we train monthly to keep our long line pilot and volunteers current. Some of our members are white water guides and we have done several white water missions using both the helicopter and some pretty wild rigging. After a friend was killed kayaking a couple of years ago one of our members created the white water branch of our group. We're not professionals, we're a bunch of dedicated mountain guys (just like a lot of you) and there really isn't a fat guy in the group (I rag Fred Stanley about the weight he's put on but remember that he only did the FA of Liberty Crack, the Great Gendarm, S Face of Prusik... as well as being on about half of the rescues in Kittitas and Chelan in the past 30 years). The only big difference between us and all you guys is that we feel that one way to give something back to the mountains is to try, within our very human limits, to help someone who needs it. There isn't a cowboy in our group. To those people who have made positve comments about SAR, thanks. I'm pretty sensitive because the shit may hit the tail rotor here in the next few weeks and I may really need the help of this group. If you really think SAR sucks, get ready to watch it go away. But remember, if we go away you better leave your cell phone at home and be ready to carry your buddy's broken ass out of the mountains. But if your really want to help, join your local group and help make it better. Sorry, didn't mean to get all wound up. I'll go back to work now.

If you think SAR is not good now wait until you see the changes in Chelan after the first of the year. You probably won't want to get hurt here. btw - Cavey - nice poll, 26.97 percent of the 26 votes agree with one of the options - the rest? Hope you didn't pay too much for the software.

Wow, those of us who have made a 30 year commitment to helping our fellow climbers sure appreciate the big vote of confidence from this forum. Makes me wonder why I do it. Chelan County Mountain Rescue

There were two built in Wenatchee during the late 70's - one consisted of three telephone poles that had a sprinkler system on top and the other was a steel hoop structure (sort of like a big roll bar) with plywood between the uprights and a water system across the top. Maintaining the proper water flow to optimize freezing while not washing away any ice was alway a problem - the water system had drains and heat tape to prevent this. When the ice was thin (or the climber gripped) a wood stick in the plywood was bomber. Both walls were lit for night climbing - one evening we came home from dinner and put Footfangs on our dress shoes and went out for a lap. In the summer the wife of one of the owners tried to get morning glories to trellis on the structure (I think she was trying to hide it). In general the neighbors tolerated it as "that wacky ice climber that lives next door". Unfortunately Wenatchee winters aren't cold enough for this kind of sillyness any more.

On a nice day in May of 1980, we set out on the Triple Couloir on Dragontail. We had just exited the Hidden Couloir and were doing the little ice bulge to the 2nd when there was a avalanche on the North Face off to our left. When we topped out, we looked into the dust cloud from the eruption of Mt St Helens. When we got back down we realized that the entire face had avied into the Hidden Couloir, altho we didn't feel any tremors. My partner had a religious conversion that day and no longer climbs (I, however, remain a heathen). A coincidence? Maybe....

This might help http://www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=4107&forum=1&28

Hey Lambone NE Ridge of Triumph is one of the great moderate ridge climbs - you'll enjoy it. When I do it again I'll take an extra day and hang at the bivi - our goal was to make the lake and be on the trail by dark and between suicidal deer in the Methow and a 4 hour drive back to wenatchee it was one loooong night. The bivi is one of the best in the cascades. Freeman

Did the NE Ridge of Black Pk last weekend - left Wenatchee at 5:00, the car at 7:45, on the route a little before noon, passed a party of 3 (who were still on the route at 5 when we were down at the lake, parking lot at 7:00 and home before 10. Used a 60 foot rope and simul climbed with running belays - some snow on upper ledges. Approach shoes for the whole climb. Nice exposed climbing, fair to great rock, class 3 to 5 easy (call it all class 4)

yea, but at M 0.1 you still need your lampoons on; we don't break out the spoofs until M 0.7

we figured it was mixed climbing at M 0.3

most climbs in the Cascades <g> A TR I read here some time ago said something like "unpleasantly loose class three but rock improves as you get higher" - I would agree with that. Similar to say, SE Buttress of Cutthroat or what I remember of the West Ridge of Stuart (no flames, it was a long time ago) or some of the lower parts of Burgandy Spire or Fernow or the lower parts of Dragontail, well you get the picture. Altho we carried a small alpine rack the best pro was long runners around horns. We actually put our lampoons on for the snowed over class 3 traverse to the notch below the summit (didn't need them on the lower snowfield last week because of new snow but this time of the year they would normally be necessary) Kyle and I agreed that we would consider repeating that route and there are many I would not. He has done the N Face of Black and said he would never do that again - we both felt this was much more pleasant than the SE "walk up" (which I do every year for the view).

Ingallis is a good intro to Alpine rock but I've seen some real clusters up there (the couple who had never rapelled before, then got their rope stuck, the guy that got off route and tried the slabs down and to the right and dislocated his shoulder, the guy that climbed into the greasy dead end in the approach gulley to the East Ridge and couldn't down climb), the woman in tears at the exposure on the top. As an old and not very bold guy I don't want to lecture but I humbly propose that the transition from gym/sport climbing to trad/leading to alpine is one we take too lightly. Toast, as you move from sport to trad consider the consequences of your placements, your anchors, of a fall on a multipitch climb (here's my Self Rescue thread again), of geting off route or over your head, of gear failure, and of your partners. Just because you climb 5.9 at E38 doesn't make Orbit or Outer Space a good choice for your first lead but a lot of people do it. Eric suggested that TR is not the best way to learn to lead and I will agree with him to stand on the ground and work out every sort of placement you can first, then go TR something and practice placing the gear (if you want to make it more realistic, leave 5 feet of slack in the top rope as you climb). The game changes dramatically when you are hanging on by one hand fiddling with your gear with the other and looking down between your feet at the last piece 10 feet below. As you move onto multi pitch climbs start talking to your partner - what happens when I'm over half the rope, can we communicate, can you help me if I fall? A favorite multi pitch climb of mine to take a newbe on is Givler's Crack - the hard move is off the ground and it has all these issues of communication, what to do in an accident, and exposure, yet eases as it gets higher. And I still feel that a mentor, someone who has been climbing for years and is willing work with you as your learn to lead, is a great idea. Toast, you didn't say who you were climbing with but since its you with the new rack I can assume she isn't very experienced either - with an experienced partner at least when you are leading you can count on her belay and advice.

Practice sewing up top rope climbs at your limit - i.e. Classic Crack, Dog Leg Crack, etc and jump on the pro it see if its good. Lead Sabre, then lower off and place gear on Canary on TR. Or follow a climb, pull the gear and replace to see what your leader did. Then come back and lead it placing the same (or better!) gear. L'worth, Tieton, and Frenchmans might be good places to try this. Be safe - learn to lead a few grades below your sport and following ability.

This is kind of an interesting thread since in the 30 years I have been hiking to the Enchantments I think I have been up and down every reasonable approach (and a few unreasonable ones <g>). The classic day trip, of course, is up Aasgard and out Snow Lakes - requires a car shuttle but makes the most sense as far as elevation gain/loss and its pretty easy to hike out Snow Lake trail in the dark. Other options - the reverse of the above, Toketie Creek (after the fire I won't do that again, Hook Creek (good approach to the Mole), Rat Creek (been down it twice - didn't learn the first time), Cannon Mountain couloir or ridge (shhh...), Colchuch Glacier and around Dragontail (once was enough on that one), Crystal Creek (shhh...), Wedge Mountain to Snow Lakes (not recommended), and Temple Canyon. I know one guy who soloed Serpentine Arete, then the West Ridge of Prusik and out in a day but thats a bit extreme. Obviously some of these are better day trips than others and each has advantages depending on your goals. I know there are also a couple more really obsure ones. I remember my first trip up Aasguard in about 1972 - we didn't even know the way around Colchuck lake. Things have sure changed since then.

Ned and Pete For what its worth, the guide that I have been skiing with in B.C. has been on the same pair of Dynafit boots and bindings for at least 5 or 6 years in a row. Boots have Intuition thermo liners and he claims than he has never had a binding failure. Since he skis all conditions about 180 days a year this seems to be a pretty good endorsement. This last year he had a new pair of the newer blue Dynafits boots, but still with the older binding instead of the Tri Step. We have seen both Silverette 404 and Diamirs break on these tours (but of course, we've broken a few cables too) but never a Dynafit. If I were ever to consider heel bondage this is the system I would choose on some short wide light boards like Bandit XXX's. Randonne - French for can't tele

Don't worry, Attitude, we will do it. We just need the time to do it right.

Chelan County Mountain Rescue has decided to postpone the public Self Rescue Seminar until next spring. It is our feelings that there is not sufficient time to put this class together this year. Unfortunately by opening this to non CCMR members many issues arise that are not present with our normal training programs, including the liability of our organization and individual members, assembling the necessary teaching materials, and obtaining permission to use some copyrighted materials. We feel that by the time these are resolved it will be too late this year for the class. It is our plan to make this the focus of our Fall training for our members and to use this experience to prepare for a public demonstration of Self Rescue next spring. I apologize for prematurely generating interest in a program that was not ready. It is apparent from the response that there is a very great need for this type of seminar and I believe that organizations like CCMR are the ones that should be presenting it to the climbing community. In the mean time I recommend that every climber seek out as much information on this subject as possible - including classes by other groups, books and magazines, and simply working through scenarios with your climbing partners. I highly recommend David Fasulo's little book Self-Rescue by Falcon (ISBN 0-934641-97-8) and a series of articles by Ramsay Thomas in Climbing magazine during 1996. And on each climb we should ask ourselves "What if....." Freeman Keller Chelan County Mountain Rescue

The guidebook is Tieton River Rock - A Climbers Guide by Christensen and Christensen published by the Wilderness Athelete in Yakima (no ISBN). The bridge to Royal Column is out - we had the crag to ourselves saturday afternoon. Of course with the Tieton-Yakima flip-flop going on its better to be on the River <g>. as an aside, we watched an interesting little saga. Saw a Black Widow "herding" a beetle over to its web where it proceeded to kill it - beetle was about 10 times the size of the spider.

This is totally off the record, but I was in the ER with this person after the accident while he was discussing his options with the orthopod on duty. The doc recommended that he have the surgery and that he would be covered if it was done that evening at Central Washington Hospital. He was also given a referal to an orthopedic surgeon in Seattle who could do this work. In a subsequent discussion with his partner I was told that he will have the surgery done (I was under the impression in Seattle). He had several fractures of the metatarsils (sp, I'm not a doc), the heel bone was "pulverized" and there was some ankle injury. The ER in CWH is the primary care facility for about half the population of Wenatchee who have no insurance - and none are denied treatment.

I'm overwhelmed by the response - there is obviously a need for this kind of training (probably from a variety of sources - the Mounties, CCMR, books...). Please, if your want to be included either post a message on the web site or e-mail me at the above address - I will not keep track of replys in this thread. We will create a list of people who are interested and mail back to you if and when it happens. There may not be time to put it all together this fall. In the mean time, it behooves us all to think about these issues and discuss them with our partner each time we climb.

OK, you start up the North Face of Old Stewie, leaving the glacier at 4:30pm with the goal of making the bivi at pitch 7 tonight. Three pitches up your partner skates off, pulling one piece and falling 70 feet, breaking his foot. You hold his fall, but he has the entire rack except for your anchor. It is 200+ feet to the glacier and you are climbing on two 50 meter 8.5's. The sun is going down. What do you do? Each of us (except the sporties) faces some variation of this every time we climb. So my questions is - does your partner know how to help you when this happens to you? Does she know how to excape the belay? To lower you 200 feet on 2 ropes tied together (passing a loaded knot on the way)? To retrieve the ropes and enough gear to get herself off and get help for you? Rather than starting a big thread discussing how to do this, I'm wondering how many of you would be interested in a seminar where we discussed and practiced Self Rescue and Partner Rescue. Chelan County Mountain Rescue has been talking about putting together a little class on this subject - one we seldom think about and never practice. We would do it sometime later this Fall, probably at L'worth, no charge, and done under the CCMR training envelope so there won't be a lot of legal issues (we will not be "teaching" but rather discussing, demonstrating, blah, blah...). You would probably have to join CCMR for the day for the insurance and liability stuff - just some paperwork formalities. If you might be interested you could contact us thru our website www.ccmra.org (go to the contact us tab) or you can e-mail me directly freeman.keller@verizon.net (please don't reply to the addy that connects to this message as it comes to my office and I'll just ignore you). btw - the above happened tuesday evening and the guys involved did everything just right. It made our work a whole lot easier and saved them a miserable night. Could you do the same when it happens to you?