Peter_Puget

Dru so right and (all you Twight fans will like this one)and ideal for living!

Truely Dick could be abrasive sometimes but what use to really get me was when he said "The moment I crossed the state line I became the best climber in the state." Of course the worst part about that was that it was true! His more recent staterment equally true was "no one has ever doen a hard boulder problem in WA."

I have to agree with Mattp on this one. And feel more than qualified to slam Tyson for his many plainly antisocial acts. Beyond any accomplishments Twight has become part and parcel to the big media/commerce BS campaign that is so often lamented on this site. Ian Curtis is surely spinning in his grave! Andre Gide is thinking "couldn't I have been more understandable?" But given that risk, from an experiential perspective, is all perception, I believe many times a year some novice climbing bursts thru Twight's comfort zone and lives on the edge in a truley sponteneous and uncontrived manner. Several have said until you've climbed like Twight how can you criticize? I say "how can you judge if somebody hasn't already climbed beyond Twight!"

I meant pure in the sense that you can concentrate "purely on the act of climbing" not on danger - not on protection - not on rope drag...... I agree that if TRing was the only form of climbing we'd be loosing out on alot.

Dru -Must be that pernicious British influence! Cast off those colonial shackles!

Dru - Good point about long climbs. I think that a promotion of TRs solve many problems but not all of them. I do know that at least one person in Wa has made a multi pitch TR route. It exists at Banks Lake and when faced with bolting in an fairly pristine enviroment he placed anchors at the top of the formation and at another location lower down. Climbed each pitch and said "why place bolts?" and left it as a TR. Eddie - Hmmm my point went right thru you! I didn't say I favored anything except sometimes TRing over placing fixed gear. Seems like its the smart thing to do!

It seems like all posters here are in agreement that “bolt smashing” is an unjustified action. I could go on to say even more cutting comments about the perpetrators of such actions and their possible motivations but feel that to do so would be like discussing morals with a two year old. Instead I would offer my meager and confused suggestions as to what the vast majority of the climbing “community” can do to help reduce situations like this from resulting. The first is the obvious don’t place bolts where reasonable protection is available using traditional methods. The second is a bit more oblique but I feel more important. Namely: promote the validity of TR ascents. After all, assuming a good anchor, protection is always good on a TR and the climbing is more pure in the sense of not having to clip bolts or place protection. Others have appealed to some lost “tradition” as a means to limit the impact of bolting or the mass appeal of climbing. I have often derided that notion. In other threads, posters have derided the commercialization of climbing in such magazines as Climbing or through retailers as REI. I would say that one of the means that this “commercialization” has taken place is the appeal to tradition while simultaneously abandoning some of the essential elements supporting it. One of these areas has been in glorifying the lead. The “idealized lead” of old usually included the following factors: on site, no hangs, leader placing protection. As such they were much more difficult. If you’ve never worked a climb at your limit without hanging dog tactics try it sometime. I am sure you’ll agree it is much more difficult and time consuming! (I say this as an unrepentant hang dogger myself!) Now in order to “sell climbing” the romantic ideal of the lead was stripped of its more limiting cofactors. A coincidental development was the improvements in camming devices which greatly eased the difficulty/seriousness of many cracks. But the real area of promotion was “sport” climbing. What is being sold is damaged goods! Sport climbing is wonderful, fun, exciting and a million other great things. I am not deriding Sport climbing as such. What I am negatively critical of is the seemingly unquenchable thirst for new leads it engenders. I look forward to the day when the “most difficult route in the world” makes it to the cover of climbing as a TR.

Don't fall because you're afraid of falling

Maybe not the best but these routes generate the fondest meories for each of their areas. Old Grey Mare - Castle Rock ROTC - Midnight Rock Japanese Gardens/10% - Index Perfidous Albion – Squamish Spider Man – Smith Blown Out - Beacon

Dru you beat me to it! I signed off thinking: "great report why didn't I post something saying that." When I got back on I saw your message.

Honestly I didn't expect the impossible ;-)

Well I received a two PMS that pretty much tell it all: from the Cap'tn:I am going to chop all the bolts you put in. From Mr. X:If you are curious about new routes, primarily in the Leavenworth area. I will give you some info via. personal email. Another case where the site looses out do to negativity. In response to those wondering why routes weren't posted: (see another thread) some people I have talked to pretty much fit in with Matt's respone but a most I talked to simply do not want to report here because they choose to give the site no legitimacy. People are choosing not to post not because they are scare of the "big monsters" here but as I said before they are disgusted by the people posting here. Pope (AKA I have not come to bury the well respected NW climber but to praise him) ask Respected PNW climber how nice you are. First you say "I wont remove your bolts" then you help instigate a series of threads bashing him then when the bashing gets really hot you comeout in a series of lame posts supporting him. Maybe I should should open up a pychoanalytic couch similar to your confessional. Come on the Dr. is in! All in all and great show of negativity and as someone else said in a post not too long ago .."slimey" Dru, from DDD restored page 2:"And why don't you fix those topos for Castle Rock; they suck" There are other similar quotes but Ill let you find them. By the way, I neglected to thank you for your support yesterday the the "kettle" is certainly black! Cavey - Seems surpising that you are concerned with the truth in your post exchange with lambone after telling express untruths about my comunication in PMs to third parties. I am still waiting for a refutation of my logic. Peter

No not wanting to argue just wondering about his thinking process. I am convinced it is in error. But willing to learn from my betters.

Dan - I'd say the ego is involved in all 4 stages you mentioned. I am no new route master but I have made several FAs over the years. Some I told my friends about right away and I looked forward to their reporting back - hoping of course they liked it. Others I have chosen not to report. Routes in this class were done at some areas in CA which at the time lacked a guidebook. Part of the fun of that area was the sense of exploration. Oddly the area has been documented now and most of our routes weren't included! Despite being, at least in our minds, obvious lines. As far as vegetation being a non issue. It is far from it. Vegetation growing on rocks is often significant issue. I believe that destruction of vegetation on the rock was a significant issue at the crags along I-90 as well as at Index. It has also been an issue at many other locations throughout the US. Lichens once removed can take years to reform this fact has been used effectively many times by anti climbing advocates. Anti climbing advocates have also noted the visual impact of scrubbed lines at Index but more importantly at least in this forum in the Icicle canyon itself.

Retro - It's easy to criticize your action because they are so wrong. But tell me since it appears that my track record is important in my appearent criticism your actions how exactly does that work? I'll ge tthe ball rolling: 1 I am a mad bolter and rap bolt all the time. 2 I am an experienced trad climber with balls of steel and I never clip bolts. 3 I am a DFW manager walking along the base and see obviously damaged hangers. Three situations different background tell me how the differing background in each situation will make an analysis of your action easier or more difficult. Remember we are not talking about the form of the conclusion here but simply the difficulty of the process.

The asymmetrical reporting of customer service complaints cannot serve as a rational basis for analysis. I joined the VW earlier this year and a week later while climbing outside heard “Hi Peter” turned around and saw woman smiling on her way past. We traded beta and she wondered off. Only later did I realize that she was the VW employee who administered the belay test. Beyond the initial post which I am sure arose from a true sense of frustration with customer service, the post linking the VW to prostitution simply is derogatory in nature. As far as preservation of the “museum” - if the point of the posts was simply to inform, they could have been made with less bravado. As a friend of mine pointed out the other day the threads related to DDD were like something out of Lord of the Flies. It is not simply a case of people being afraid of being attacked by “spray dogs” but that there is an unremitting negativity that permeates the site. It is an uncontrovertible fact that people with real valuable info and yes, even humor, are avoiding this site because of the behavior exhibited on it. True, the postings do give the site its personality but that is a mere tautology. It’s the personality itself that is being decried. It is throwing a red herring into the mix to say that it is important not turn CC.com into a sterile reporting environment. Clearly no one is advocating that. What is wrong and contemptible is a poster with multiple identities, some of them existing only to foment trouble, posting to this thread under their “voice of reason persona.” What is wrong is a person with a reputation for smashing hangers flat on routes at Vantage promoting the removal of the DDD bolts as arising from a respect for environment and tradition. These specific items have been pointed out to me by people while I was encouraging to post to CC.com as reasons why they chose not to. It’s precisely because the site is not representative enough of “western society” that there is a problem.

Dru - Many have said Viktor's guide was good after the comments stating how bad the drawings were made. For starters one of Retro's posts was patently offensive in his treatment of Viktor. Perhaps I shouldn't have said shitty but my intent was to conjure up the dismissive tone of the original posts. Don't worry about the kids I put the site on the ban list. I see negativity but more importantly others such as MattP and those we have spoken to see it too. So while I'll generally agree with the " depends on if the glass is half empty or half full" way of looking at things, I do not think it is responsive to the case being made here. Cavey - help me out. Earlier I asked about how the logic of my aurgument would change. (as an aside: I have not complained about the responses I have recieved to my post with the one exception of mentioning that some actions attributed to me were clearly false) Explain to me how "half of your argument does not even fit this subject above.. Duh!" Please start by delineating the two halves. Maybe Pope could help out by applying some of Richard v Mises' theories concerning statistics.

Tell me how the logic of my aurgument changes if my identity is known? Someone pointed out that even the most rabid overbolters produced 5 good lines for every bad one. An while that ratio might be subject to debate I would like to hear about the other 5! I would like Viktor to be able to post without being told how shitty his guidebook is. I would like my kids to be able to view this site without me feeling a sense of embaressment.

In general Mark hits the nail on the head BUT I would ask him and those non posters who happen to read this to consider that their posts are important and part of the solution. It's not just the threatening or mean spirited (Interview with a Well Respected..)posts but the general tone. For example: Washington guidebooks suck thread - or - Vertical world employees are rude threads. I know many people who have good information concerning existing routes as well as info regarding new or recent FAs. They refuse to release information to this web site. Since I know them and know the information is good I can't help wonder what other info is out there but hidden by those people I do not know. My guess is that there is a ton of great stuff we are all missing! To paraphrase: Posts aren't killing this site people are.

Although sometimes I have fallen short of being as nice as I should be, it should be noted that anonymity does nothing to ameliorate the derisive tone of a posting. In addition, in one exchange, clear lies concerning my actions were posted by someone who has reveiled his identity. Give me an example of when I threatened someone or lied in a post? Those who frequent here - especially the post-a-maniacs- enjoy the CC.com atmosphere. I believe the point Matt was making is that the site could be so much more in terms of humor and information if more people felt like they WANTED to contribute. I do not think they feel excluded or intimated. They are simply repulsed by the behavior often exhibited here. [This message has been edited by Peter Puget (edited 08-09-2001).]

I agree with Matt. There is a distinct difference between joking and threats or mean spirited derision.

Here are a couple of tricks I learned from a Great Pacific Iron Works Cat. years ago. I think the writer was Dale Bard. At least while practicing hand jams try not to use your fingers but instead rely on the palm and back of the hand. Of course in those difficult jams you'll use everything you have. The link was pretty good but think that one comment was confusing. It's not difficult to reach far with and then place thumb to the inside hand jam. What is hard is reaching past the thumb-in jam. Thumbs-in jams are usually better jams tho but you pay the price when your reaching for the next jam.

Ok I don't want to work so...here are some lesser known routes at Index that might be a bit scruffy now but at least when I climbed them were fun: Inner Wall: Corner Flash 5.7 hand to wide hands Happy Puppy 5.8/9 Hand to chimney GN Slab Top Rope the first part of Lizaed 5.8 Winkie Dinkie CLiff Timberjack 5.8 lieback Mid Wall Robins Ramp 5.7 plus it's easy to TR some short cracks at the bottom. Plum Puddin 5.9 finger crack lieback easy to hang on gear if you get tired. And at the Fun Forest there are some easy things on the left side for TR'ing

I feel free to but I won't because you're right. For some reason Snow Creek Wall gets more aclaim than it deserves. And I would add that looking back on it I have much fonder memories of Orbit than OS.

Since we are on a Nietzsche kick I thought the following quotes seemed appropriate to the postings here at CC.com: “The most common modes of expression are: ..to mock, to destroy... Paraphrased: The strength of our knowledge doesn't lie in truth, but tradition and old moldy volumes..”even mold enobles."