Peter_Puget

quote: Originally posted by Jim: old inheritance tax info, now repealed for 3 years, which may go permanant under this Congress. Draw your own conclusions: Estates $1 million – and effectively double that amount for spouses – are exempt from the tax. The tax is collected only from the richest 1.4 percent – and two thirds of the inheritance tax revenues comes from the wealthiest .2 percent. And there are options for gifting if you do it over an extended period (IRS 2002)(I'm summarizing) Was it repealed for three year scompletely or phased out? If the former I am wrong for three years.

quote: Originally posted by j_b: I just want to remind everyone interested in understanding where this flurry of attacks comes from that they should read the links provided. These texts are not from anyone's press in particular, they are opinions and witness accounts by people with a good knowledge of the israeli state, often israeli citizens themselves.I am always surprised when someone's wrong doing are justified by someone else's. it is really this kind of logic that allowed the situation to deterorates to what it is today. I really don't feel I have anything to add, rants of dubious logic won't take us very far (for those interested in getting somewhere). Ah J-B here is a copied link from earlier in this thread. http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=344510 Isn't this someone's press. Don't the organizations you linked to have an express political purpose? If so they are someone's voice. Your first post to this thread you suggest that it is an extension of an earlier thread. In that thread you posted clear references to Gaurdian and the Nation. You even asked why I didn't respond to the particulars of the stories. My response was that posting rants from various interest groups proved nothing. I still belive it does. But I thought I'd buttress that claim by exposing the obvious mistruths printed in some of your quoted sources. So for the first part of yoru quote above I call BS. I have never justified Israel's poor behavior (and I believe Mtngoat hasn't either) and I ask that if you think I have show mme an example. As I pointed out several times you have avoided directly answering any questions regarding Arab behavior. I repeat since I (and I believe MG) have been making comparitive judgements not to due so shows "dubious" logic at best. I do not doubt that atrocities have been committed by both sides. This has never been disputed. I do find the current claim of "war crimes" and "genocide" to be of part and parcel of propganda supporting a political campaign not a serious anaysis of the situation. Your uncritical use and progation of such statements leads me to conclude you are merely a propagandizer. If calling you that is an attack then so be it. PP [ 11-14-2002, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

The problem with the tax is simple - unintended consequences. The goal should be to reduce them to as close to zero as possible. As such economic analysis can only go so far. At some point human behavior comes into play as crass politics. In general I imagine the best system would be simple and predictable. Unbelievably from this thread I can only conclude that I am one of those selfish rich fucks stealing from the poor and contributing nothing. Oddly I seem to live modestly and have to pay attention to my bills. My parent's estate if they were to die today would be subject to the death tax and yet they worry about affording to care for my father as his health and mental acuity decline. As a result when ever I hear people spewing shit about rich and poor and taxes I tend to shut down. Just a quick question why doesn't everyone state their ages. 45 PP

quote: Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing: What are you two, gay or something? You say that like it is bad or something!

quote: Originally posted by j_b: quote: MtnGoat: Israel: Constition, laws, rights, religous freedom. Palestinians and their islamic supporters: none of these MtnGoat is poorly informed: http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/return.html [url=http://academic.udayton.edu/race/06hrights/VictimGroups/Palestinans/palestinans02.htm]http://academic.udayton.edu/race/06hrights/VictimGroups/Palestinans/palestinans02.htm[/uR L] in other words, it's not much different than what we did to the American Indians except times have changed and a little powder in the eye (barely) is needed to maintain appearances. sorry about the new thread but the original one does not take replies Mtngoat, I think J_B's initial post to this thread needs a rethink in view of later posts: It seems that he has in fact affirmed your Israel claim. He has indicated that he doesn't like Israeli law but that does not negate the fact that there are in fact laws and that Israelis are held to them. He has one glaring omission: he does not provide support for the Palestinians and their Islamic supporters having these. He can't because they don't. Not only do the majorities in these societies not have these rights, but the minorities are even worse off. He is merely a propagandist. He also never responded to my question regarding how many "Palestinians" were killed by the Jordanian government. He never addresses the Arab countries at all despite the fact that your and my claims being comparative in nature. Here is a great quote by that honorable man Abu Abbas, you know the guy that organized the Achille Laurel hijacking during which Leon Klinghoffer (age 69 and in a wheelchair) was shot and thrown into the sea concerning Iraq:"Iraq continues to affirm, through President Saddam Hussein, our legitimate rights as Arabs to freedom, independence, and use of our own resources." Ah freedom, Independence use of own resources can you believe he actually said that. Amazing! By the way didn't he just have an unfortunate illness in Bagdad? It would be interesting to review public declarations and written comment to see just when the genocide type of comment became the buzzword de jour. But it is consistently used and like Saddam's recent reply to the UN (which I recommend everyone read) sounds strikingly like the NAZI's of old. This is not surprising when the popularity of Mein Kampf and Protocol of the Elders of Zion in Arabs countries are considered. J-B brings a North American reference into the mix with his "what we did to the Indians" comment. I would think the comparison fitting if the US was in the size and location of the state of Rhode Island and the Indians (occupying the surrounding territory) openly declared on several occasions that their intended goal was to wipe all settlers and push the survivors into the Atlantic Ocean. Then after the Indians tried and failed to do so several times the citizens of Rhode Island ended up occupying a few square miles of Connecticut which they were willing to give back 97% of to achieve a peace settlement. But alas that is simply not the case. The reference is simply absurd serving a political rather than a analytical purpose. PP

quote: Originally posted by j_b: Webster Main Entry: geno·cide Pronunciation: 'je-n&-"sId Function: noun Date: 1944 : the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group Ah so given this we (ie western culture and the US in particular) is the victim of genocide by Al Qaeda. Now even I will say that is ridiculus but so is J_B's genocide assertion it is merely the corruption of the language for crass poilitical purposes. One Mafia crime family wiping out another could be genocide. Note herr dimwitted one (J_B) that my post showed several things. 1. the unreliabilty of your favorite press. 2. it implied that the gross misrepresentation of event by your press must be purposeful 3. illustrated how lies are part of your and the Palestinian process For an example of genocide I think a far better example would be in the Sudan or in Indonesia. Come on J_B how many Christians have been killed in those locations precisely because they are Christian? How many have been forcefully circumsized? I bet you don't know. I know it is greater than the Palestinians killed in Israeli conflict. And yet the financial supporters of the Jihadists there are the same supporters if the Palestinians. Arafat called the Jenin incident "Jeningrad" bringing up a WW2 reference which also brings up German oppression and genocide (ie war crimes)yet during the seige of Leningrad Russians were falling at a rate of about 1,000/per day. About 1.5 million Russians died in Stalingrad. The fighting was a quantum leap greater than Jenin to the point where any comparison is simply goofy. I would say look at the numbers of Vietnamise killed during the Tet offensive. American's had a staggering kill to loss ratio. Yet the Iraelis killed Palestinians at a 2:1 ratio to their losses. I am sure we'd all agree that the Israelis are some of the best trained soldiers on the planet and the "general" population of Jenin not rigorously trained. The only rational conclusion one can make regarding the high number of Israeli casualties is that they tried like hell notto cause indiscriminant carnage - too the point where they lost soldiers because of it. How many were killed in the LA riots after the Rodney King verdict? Checkout this link and read a much better example of a desired genocide. Real Genocide Note also how J_B continuously ridicules in his responses. Sad. Especially given the low level of his argumentation. The use of dimwitted earlier was stolen from him. PP [ 11-14-2002, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Shhh don't reveal my secret!

I don't see the allure of dry tooling or even of ice climbing but there is certainly no shortage of cliffs available for TRing. Lawgoddess, give GregW a call and check out the rocks around Anderson Creek off of hwy 2. The write up a trip report for us to read. Better yet spend time in the gym getting in shape for rock! PP

It's not leading all the pitches but leading enough so that I can say I really climbed the route as opposed to being a belayer. I am always amazed at how many people claim to have climbed hard aid routes but basically were belayers. Whats worse than not leading enough of the hard pitches is having to fessup that you lead none of them. As a practical matter, for most parties I'd say 2 is faster. PP

No that's what I want to do!

quote: Originally posted by Greg W: What's wrong with a bit of friendly jocularity? Nothing but I am sure if you relax you'll find it much more enjoyable. In anycase you'll remember it more than the climb!

Advantages of Zipper Area: 1 Possible opportunity for free climbing even in rain. 2 Large areas essentially seltered from rain. 3 Several routes to work on. 4 Widely varied terrain a Base of zipper b Zipper Slab c La Bomba overhanging crack Downside: approach hike [ 11-13-2002, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Damn and here I am making a serious reply to this darn thread. Lamy is right 3 can be a mess if you aren't dialed into the big wall thing. The biggest drawback is that you can only lead 1/3 of the pitches. That is you are only on the sharp end 2/3 of the time you would be if there were only two. Sometimes with only one partner I have been involved in much scheming to get the right pitches - with three it can become a nightmare. Nothing is worse than jugging most of the hard pitches on a difficult aid climb - well I guess jugging all of them might be worse. PP

For those who have "clicked" and read some of J-B's links here is a link to Daniel Pipes. Daniel Pipes Here are some great gems from some of the "news" sources J-B seems to prefer. They all refer to the Israeli incursion in to Jenin several months ago. Israel's actions in Jenin were "every bit as repellent" as Osama bin Laden's attack on New York on September 11", Guardian in its lead editorial of April 17. "We are talking here of massacre, and a cover-up, of genocide," said a leading columnist for the Evening Standard, April 15. "Rarely in more than a decade of war reporting from Bosnia, Chechnya, Sierra Leone, Kosovo, have I seen such deliberate destruction, such disrespect for human life," reported Janine di Giovanni, the London Times's correspondent in Jenin, on April 16. "Amid the ruins, the grisly evidence of a war crime," the Jerusalem correspondent for the London Independent, Phil Reeves, began his dispatch from Jenin: "A monstrous war crime that Israel has tried to cover up for a fortnight has finally been exposed." He continued: "The sweet and ghastly reek of rotting human bodies is everywhere, evidence that it is a human tomb. The people say there are hundreds of corpses, entombed beneath the dust." (April 16th) Reeves yet again: "atrocities committed in the Jenin refugee camp, where its army has killed and injured hundreds of Palestinians." On April 17, the Guardian's lead editorial compared the Israeli incursion in Jenin with the attack on the World Trade Center on September 11. "Jenin," wrote the Guardian was "every bit as repellent in its particulars, no less distressing, and every bit as man-made." "Jenin camp looks like the scene of a crime… Jenin already has that aura of infamy that attaches to a crime of especial notoriety," Writing on April 15, A. N. Wilson, one of the Evening Standard's leading columnists wrote "we are talking here of massacre, and a cover-up, of genocide." Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, a leading columnist for the Independent wrote (April 15): "I would suggest that Ariel Sharon should be tried for crimes against humanity … and be damned for so debasing the profoundly important legacy of the Holocaust, which was meant to stop forever nations turning themselves into ethnic killing machines." Some US reports contradicting the above reports: Boston Globe: Following extensive interviews with "civilians and fighters" in Jenin "none reported seeing large numbers of civilians killed." On the other hand, referring to the deaths of Israeli soldiers in Jenin, Abdel Rahman Sa'adi, an "Islamic Jihad grenade-thrower," told the Globe "This was a massacre of the Jews, not of us." On April 16, Newsday's reporter in Jenin, Edward Gargan, wrote: "There is little evidence to suggest that Israeli troops conducted a massacre of the dimensions alleged by Palestinian officials." Molly Moore of the Washington Post reported: "No evidence has yet surfaced to support allegations by Palestinian groups and aid organizations of large-scale massacres or executions." Some additional facts: The Palestinian Authority now claims that 56 Palestinians died in Jenin., Human Rights Watch report said 52 Palestinians died. Israel says 46 Palestinians died. Note the absurd use of the terms genocide and crime in the J_B favored sources. What makes the use of such terms repellent and contemptible is that they are based in purposefully spread lies. As such they are not part of a vigorous debate but rather are mere propaganda points to be used by those who either uncritically accept such drivel or believe if you repeat a lie with vigor and volume you can will it into becoming the truth. PP

quote: Originally posted by j_b: quote:I dont think it proves much I'd expect nothing different from you. Ouch! quote: I am not sure what point you're making that israeli policy toward arabs has a large responsability in this bloody mess. I am not surprised you can't see it even after reading the pieces I linked, those with a more open mind should think differently. You state the obvious. That the past actions of one of the major participants in a conflict can have had an impact on the structure of current conditions hardly needs your links.

Can I come too or is three a crowd.

I agree with the try them on comments but alos figure out what kind of climbing you will do. For example the perfect sport climbing helmet is far different than the perfect alpine one.

Greg - Are you telling me that if if we go aid climbing you will refuse to share my deluxe double wide portaledge? Nothing like company in a steamy doublewide to pass time! While you're hanging out

Great TR. Aren't cams needed in some holes fo rthe top half too?

I could go on all day but as I said in an earlier post I dont think it proves much. I am not sure what point you're making J_B. Please explain. Mtngoat himself said that Irealis have done some bad things. He merely said they were less vile than the palestinians a point I agree with. In a way you are agreeing with him by showing the diversity of opinion that is possibly to express in Isreal. With hyperbole please explain. [ 11-11-2002, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Wow HC is an awesome route. Pretty runout on real place yoru own pro even Dwayne r and Pope would be impressed. Who sent that guy?

Hey did anyone ever give me a definition of colonialism?

The Egyptian paper, al Ahram, asked for British poet Tom Paulin's opinions on the Middle East: Among other things, he opined that the US-born Jewish settlers should be shot dead. "They are Nazis, racists," he said, adding - unnecessarily, you might argue - "I feel nothing but hatred for them." He also pronounced that the state of Israel had no right to exist, that Tony Blair's government was "Zionist"… Now check out this link: Pathetic Joke

Wasn't last weekend the big everyone's going to Smith weekend? What did eveyone do? And don't say Freshiez! PP

Glad to have brightened up this dreary Monday for you!