Lambone

depends if your married or not...

so would it be unethical to nail Brittney Spears?

don't use a cheater stick to extend your reach...it's bad form...

crusty, yup, you got me all figerd out man. I'm all for bolting cracks and calling in helocopters when you don't feel like walking down from routes. I also like to pick on people who can't climb as well as me and are forced to place pitons instead of using clean gear. Oh yeah, I also enjoy lieing and acusing people of stealing stuff as much as possible. Man, how did you find all this stuff out about me?

Sounds like a cool climb even thogh conditions weren't great.

go for it, chop the bolts too. And don't forget to piss on the ledges and toss your shit bags off...

Spanker, I obtained all that information through what your partner wrote in the fixed pins thread. It just seems that people are defending you guys by stating that pins were placed in order to get off the route. Instead of getting all pissed off, how bout just stating whether they were or were not. And if they were, then I'm suprised that someone would rap off a single kinfeblde when there was a big bomber anchor placed a few feet above. The pins were placed on lead dude, to get higher, don't call me the liar as you try and deny it.

Dude, I was with two chicks, nuff said...we wern't moving anywhere in that weather. We fucked up, we shouldn't have been there, how many times can I say it.

Rescued themselves???? They wen't climbing in the rain, brought pins, nailed them, got sick of the rain, built an anchor out of cams and nuts and bailed...leaving the pins. By the way, the anchor is to Sean's left in that link posted above. Riding on the Chinook was fun, bet you wish you were still doing that kind of stuff...?

Bolted Crack! Bolted cracks rule...

Dru, How does nailing go faster than doing it clean? Especialy if your client has to clean the pins...???

Yeah that's pretty funny... Once again, IF the pins WERE placed as a rap anchor then your little argument might hold some water. Sure, preserving a life comes WAY before a little bit of rock scaring. However, they wern't...so the point your are trying to make seems a bit obtuse to me... So if others want to continue this discussion- forget about ehmmic and the Green Drag-on. She's over it, I'm over it, lets stop refering to her not-so-fun experience. Lets focus on the topic. What justifies placing pitons? Does a wet crack justify it? Does being scared justify it? I've nailed pins on routes that have gone clean, I'm not inoccent. But I feel guilty, and regret even getting on the route. After how many clean ascents does it become no-longer OK to nail a on route? One, a few...? Oh and by the way...the cheap shots about Glacier peak are not upsetting me...so might as well just give it up. The ethics of cell phones is a different subject.

...how many times? Jason, When it comes to bailing...I'm an expert! The technical stuff is the easy part, it's the mental anguish and depression that follows afterwards that is the crux....But so far I'm 3 for 5 on El Cap, so that ain't too bad. And I wouldn't call the NA and Trip the easiest routes on El Cap. Trade routes sure, but they are steep and scary as hell, and both were attempted with first timers....not that it matters. Anyway, hopefully that rate will change this spring. Bug couldn't have said it better. I wanted to start a ethics discussion, not a "what ehmmic did right or wrong" spray fest. lummox brings up a great point about the best way to clean pins!

Scott, Just for the sake of defending myself... Before I posted anything about pins on GD I sent Ehmmic a private email offering to return her anchor, and telling her that I was bothered about the new pins on the route. She didn't mention the pins in her reply to me, so I posted the thread. Some people like to voice their opinions about war, politics, SUV's, horsecock...whatever on this site. I don't, climbing topics interest me, and I feel strongly about this one. I am sorry that ehmmics name got drug through this argument, but don't blame me. I introdeced my opinion withinin the context of a local climbing route (sure it was a troll, stirring up a debate). She brought her own name into the flames. This is just getting stupid anyway. Say what you wan't...it's done.

You say that as if you haven't imposed your own ethics and morals...? I think I offer plenty of free advice "education" on this web site. Some people don't seem to like that much either. It's a tough croud...

I see your point Scott, and to an extent...you're right. People shouldn't stay away from routes that push their limits. They sould leave the pins at home when climbing clean trade routes....and I'm not trying to harp on ehmmic here, I'm just speaking generaly. It is just like trying a sport climb at your limit. If you can't do it, your lower off a leaver biner. You don't bring a chisel and chip the rock down to your level. For me, I feel the same way about aid climbing. The problem is the grey area between a used to be nail-up route, and now clean route. Who decides what category a route falls into? That's a tough one. Usualy people refer to guide books for this type of information. Sky Valley says people may need pins on this pitch of the route. Maybe so...maybe not, it clearly depends on the skill and equipment that the climber posseses. I find it hard to believe that someone can afford a wall rack and aid gear, including pitons, but not some of the specialized clean climbing equipment. So then it comes down to the skills to use it. For that you do what most climbers do, you work up the grades and pay your dues on C2 before you try a C3. Or you try it, without pins, and if you get stopped you go down and let your partner try. I don't know...maybe these are just the standards I hold myself to and I'm trying to impose them on others...maybe so, but so what...why not?

Well thats not very sporting. "g'night george"..."g'night Ralph"...

Actually, I was out climbing all day...sorry you weren't. But I''m glad you had fun taking your agressions out on my avatar. "Why don't you try being nice for once..." Oh, and the routes that make me GOD are much cooler than those you mentioned...

Your opinion is fine, but I still call your bullshit... There are at least three new fixed pins on that pitch. All succesively below the bail anchor she placed. These pins were not placed as a last resort to save a life...gimme a fuckin break. From what I could see, the pins were hammered to make progress up the pitch, not get down. A rap anchor was not made from pitons, but from large cams and nuts. All I am saying is if it comes to placing pins, why not just suck it up, admit you are not ready, and back off and down climb the clean peices you had just placed, and leave the pitch for those who enjoy clean climbing for what it is? Having a string of heads blow up on el cap is one thing, this is an entirely different situation, and yes...it does bother me. So be it. And by the way, I don't moderate this forum...and I didn't say "get over it." New pins on clean routes will allways bother me (same as new bolts on old routes), and I never plan to get over it. I have nothing to hide about what happened on Glacier peak, if you want the facts, just ask...instead of making up random fictions like "no rain gear." People will think what they wan't and it doesn't bother me 'cause it's in the past and the three of us are better climbers for it.

That is bullshit dan, I have her rap anchor in my gear room (and intend to return it). It consists of a cam and two large nuts, some biners and a sling. Pins were not any part of that anchor, they were all placed below it. Not that it matters, but there is a major difference between ehmmics epic and ours, she wen't up in the rain with the intention of climbing the route even if it required nailing. We wen't up on a bluebird day and got caught by a storm that came in durning the middle of the night in a matter of hours. We were soaked and cold at 10,000ft for three nights, 14 miles from the trailhead. I fail to see the corelation. The point of that thread that I started was the NEWBIES SHOULDN'T BRING PINS UP ON CLASSIC CLEAN AID ROUTES...no more no less... I didn't speculate on ehmmics experience, or epic as it may be. I adressed the pins and the pins alone. She came out and told everybody her story, it was her choice. I stick to my opinion, people who nail clean routes are lame, or at least selfish.... If you can't get up it with clean gear then back off, your obviously in over your head. Sloth-Man doesn't seem to think nailing clean routes is a big deal. I do,...he has his opinion, I have mine. I don't really give a crap what others think anyway...just had to call your BS. Cheers

I don't think they should wear any faster then a normal spectra sling... Check 'em out and post a review in the new gear review forum... Pro Mountain Sports also has these slings in stock...and all the other cool stuff that you could ever want...

well maybe that came out a bit wrong...

no, further down in the permenantly wet spot. she didn't make it to the crux...

Vertical World. Ask for Andy or Adam, they are awsome instructos and can teach about anything you want to know.