W

The personal version is far more commonly seen than the national version. Neither is prevalent, however. Maybe in your life. Too bad for you. T-I wasn't disagreeing with your point. But I stand by my statement- you would be hard pressed to find a person whose actions are dominantly altruistic, although there are surely a few. Everyone has done selfless acts at some point, but I don't think we have yet evolved as a species that this can be accurately described as a prevalent characteristic. And indeed, I make no claim to have transcended my own self. We all have our moments; with increased self knowledge, perhaps we will have many more. It's day to day...

The personal version is far more commonly seen than the national version. Neither is prevalent, however.

Thus: SPRAY>ACTION>WORDS>VALUES and conversely (SPRAY)(ACTION)= ULTIMATE TRUTH I think you are missing the "values coefficient" in your equation. For America, it is 0.96. For Asia, it is 0.82. See Table 1.34a for complete listing.

In practice, it seems that humans talk about values, but act on their interests. If the two are indeed separate entities, and if life is characterized by our actions, then "values" have no significance, they are merely theoretical; empty idealism and idle talk. Actions speak louder than words.

You are saying, essentially, that given the way the world actually is, every nation simply does what it has to do for it's own survival. I agree that this has some validity and relevance. However, sticking to this "reality" as official policy basically says that we will always sell out other people, even our "allies", whenever we perceive that our "interests" are at stake. Every relationship is a matter of convenience and opportunity and usefulness, and when these cease to be upheld, the other person becomes expendable. I don't treat my wife, friends, or neighbors with this sort of regard, so on the large scale, why would I want my country to relate to other countries in this manner? What comes around goes around. And what exactly does this say about our "interests"? What are they? What interests hold such validity to justify, for example: -Selling weapons to the Islamic Fundamentalists running Iran in the 1980's (oh wait, they are still there and being labeled as the new, biggest threat to America), in exchange for hostages (despite our governments stated policy of non-negotiation with terrorists), and money- which was then funneled illegally to support guerrillas in Nicaragua and El Salvador, who killed thousands of civilians in an attempt to save them from socialism (Hey, wasn't Ortega just re-elected? I don't agree with Ortega's politics, but the fact is, the people like him. Why is it so difficult for our government to allow other countries to determine their own destiny?) -Clinton's (and everyone before him) support of the dictator Suharto in Indonesia, whose invasion of East Timor killed an estimated 1/3 of that country's population! -Aid for Saddam's war against Iran (at the same time we were engaged in Iran/Contra, selling weapons to both sides) -Standing idly by while former Yugoslavia turns into genocidal theater (I guess such matters aren't in our "interests"? No money to be made there?) Or Sudan. Or Rwanda. Long list here. -10 years of war in Vietnam which resulted in 58000 Americans killed, and over 4 million Vietnamese killed. The war was lost anyway, and the its spillover into Cambodia destabilized that country enough to allow the Khmer Rouge to come to power and kill millions more people in it's ghoulish attempt to eradicate individual thought. The reason for the war was to stop communism-Vietnam went commie after all, and the system failed predicably and they've recently been given "ally" status once again as they adopt free market principles. Freedom of speech et.al. remains stifled, human rights are almost non-existent, especially in China, but that isn't what matters; what is really important is that their economies are capitalist and we can do business with them. The list is endless and although I list American examples, is exclusive to no country. Despite all the justifications, the decision to undertake these actions were not being made with a gun held to our head. There were options. America was not on the verge of being taken over or collapsing. In each case and countless others not mentioned, our policies were carefully calculated and made over long periods of time. I don't think anyone would take actions that have these sorts of horrific impacts and cause so much suffering on a local level, so I'm left assuming that by the time our leaders have risen to the top ranks, they must be totally insane.

*Yawn* My inclination is that the democrats are going to accomplish very little for the next two years; just enough to make it seem they are trying to do "something", while blaming Bush for whatever fails, but playing it safe and restrained enough to not damage their chances at winning the white house in 2008. In other words, they are going to play politics just like the Republicans. Also- Bush couldn't care less about who holds Congressional control. He's proven himself immune to congressional or public opinion and it's no accident that he's surrounded himself with people who tell him what he wants to hear. In the next two years, Bush will do everything in his power to circumvent Congress and the Constitution in order to get his agenda realized. I wish I could feel like this is a sunny new day for American politics but I think this is just a sucker hole.

Bump- Patagonia pants sold. See pics above for what's still available. C'mon...buy my stuff.

The sarcasm is noted Jay, and I agree that the attempts at labeling such things as a "direct link" are usually a desperate stretch. But what is our recourse for criticism of our government's past misdeeds, which seem to repeat themselves ad nauseum? Right now we're almost 4 years into a war that started to depose a supposedly threatening leader, to whom our very own government provided arms and tactical support to fight the Iranians in the 1980's... and continued to do so for years while that same leader openly committed genocidal acts against his own people. Saddam's character never changed; what changed was his usefulness to us. This sort of "usefulness" that has been repeatedly exploited by our government- to the detriment of countless victims, however unintended- is what I'd like to see more critically examined.

I don't think this information "proves" somehow that the Bush family holds Nazi values. I think what it does illuminate, however, is how adherance to political ideologies, and the charging ahead with aggressive financial dealings by powerful individuals (private, political, or both) allow said individuals to form alliances that essentially provide moral and tacit support for truly despicable leaders and governments- in this historical case, Hitler, or in a more modern case- Saddam in the 1980's. In the quest for actualizing self serving agendas, civil societies continue to make the mistake of not examining these blind alliances with nefarious individuals. Short sightedness always comes back to haunt.

Bump Frontpoint jacket sold.

Post deleted by W

This is a repeat from awhile ago...pics this time for some items. Have the following items for sale, all are used except where noted: North Face Kichatna Gore Tex Jacket, Men's L. Some wear on the sleeves but otherwise good condition. $40 Moonstone Goretex Bibs- Men's Medium. 2 Front bib pockets, rainbow drop seat. Wear and tear on knee and thigh areas. One suspender buckle needs replacement. $35 Mountain Hardwear Fleece Jacket- full front zip. Men's Large. $40 PuffballSOLD Feathered Friends FRONTPOINT SOLD Patagonia Pants SOLD Most prices are negotiable, especially if buying multiple items. Post or PM.

Molly, While working on Mt. Rainier 11 years ago, two friends who were climbing rangers died on a SAR. I was hired to replace them and finish out the season. My first day on the job, I talked with all the climbers at the high camp. Every one of them was very much aware of the accident a week earlier, and that the route conditions were treacherous. Every one. My second day, I watched three of the same people I spoke with the day before, who appeared exceedingly cognicent of the conditions, take a 2500 foot, cartwheeling fall down the route. Two died, one barely survived. I've had numerous friends die climbing in the years since, most recently last spring in Alaska. Each and every of them were more than aware of the risks of this life and in climbing. So your patently false and ill informed judgments are not appreciated in the slightest and are amazingly disrespectful.

True indeed; the term used for this is to "fail upward". (apologies for another Twightism) In places like Alaska, employing the latter and hoping for the former, in the long run, I believe to be the recipe for both success and long life.

Truer words were never spoken. What gets lost in the hype about the light and fast philosophy is that failure has to be expected and welcomed and that the process is the point, not "success". It's cliche to quote Mark Twight, but let's face it, his book and his writings have done a lot for promoting and popularizing this style in the US, and in his assertions he makes no effort to downplay the fact that when employing such a style one must be prepared to fail when even a single problem arises, or to not even begin the climb at all. Many years ago, Charlie Porter once said 'if you wait for the weather you won't do jack-shit', and to some extent that remains true, but the light and fast ethic requires a careful reevaluation of that statement.

Ha! I could smell the alcohol on you from half a pitch away. 'A' for effort, anyway. My top 5 on this list would probably, Forrest, include sitting on our backpack for 5 hours on top of the Andromeda Strain waiting for daybreak so we could find the descent; after 18 hours of climbing, we enjoyed temps in the high teens, light snowfall, and with a refreshing 10-15 mph wind adding to the ambiance. I slept for 17 consecutive hours after getting down that morning, probably a personal best. However, what I am sure remains my most physically demanding day in the mountains is my first time up Liberty Ridge in May of 1994. At the time, it was easily the biggest and steepest route either Joe or I had ever attempted. We started from Carbon River/Ipsut since it was early season, and everything above 4000' was solidly snowed in. After hiking into treeline friday night followed by an arduous day reaching Thumb Rock, Joe and I got up at 3 AM and left camp at 4. Passing the short step just above the camp constituted the first time I had ever swung an ice tool and I placed my first ice screw to go with that. This was followed by 12 hours of horrendous trailbreaking in up to 3 feet of unconsolidated snow, in places overlaying bulletproof ice. For much of the section passing the Black Pyramid, which we chose to do far out to the left with heavy exposure to Willis Wall/Thermogenesis, we were essentially digging a trench uphill. The descent down the Winthrop took us into the fog and endless wandering around trying to find Moraine Park. Reached the car at Ipsut Creek trailhead at 4 AM, hour 24. Reached Seattle at 6 AM, after some strange hallucinations enroute. Arrived at work at 7:15 AM. Slept at desk until 4 PM. In a display of how route conditions, fitness, and experience, can affect a climb, when I ascended the route again two years later, the section from Thumb Rock to Liberty Cap went in 4 1/2 hours, an almost casual day in the mountains.

No, don't worry- no fees. In short, starting next season horses are not allowed on the trails, meaning, climbers will have to pack all their own supplies in and out of Rio Blanco and D'Agostini camps. And, the squalid "cooking shelters" will be removed, and not replaced. The former makes the trip cheaper, really, and makes you more fit. The latter is not a huge loss either- they are gross and leak like sieves- you just need to bring a bigger basecamp tent for cooking and hanging out. New Patagonia Regulations

What a load of bollocks. I worked in SAR for many years and while I've seen many situations where climbers made foolish choices, I've never met anyone who was so supremely ignorant of the consequences of their decisions that your statement advocates. In the context of the recent incident, you seem to suggest that these guys charged headlong up the mountain without a care to anyone or even themselves. That is at best uninformed, speculative hyperbole. Almost every climber realizes fully that decisions in the mountains might be life or death, not only for themselves but for others. At least part of the attraction of climbing is the immediacy of such situations and the level of responsibility one must assume for one's actions. Most climbers are painfully aware of this relationship, but regardless, they are still human and subject to making mistakes; like any segment of our species, some pay the ultimate price for those mistakes. I would suggest that climbers are more in touch with the immediacy of their own lives than most other people; the only other group that might compare is soldiers in combat. In the end, simply being there is a choice; but your assumption is poor and off base.

We climbed Weeping Pillar with the Teardrop finish on saturday. First two pitches were moderate WI5 with excellent, plastic ice from top to bottom. Ice doesn't get any better! 2nd lead is a touch harder due to some lacy mushrooms at the start but returns to deep blue plastic. Final pitch is solid 5+, we snuck the pillar on the left side and behind, then climbed by stemming between the pillar and the next one right before stepping out left onto the Teardrop pillar directly, near the top. Lots of technical, dry ice on the pillars, very steep, but decent rests and good pro keep it from being grade 6. The prow of the pillar direct looked very cool but would be a 'full value experience'. Climbed Oh Le Tabernac on sunday; first half is the crux, can chimney and stem between two pillars for 15 meters but has very steep and technical exit right on overhanging mushrooms. When partners followed, the right hand pillar in the chimney cracked and settled about one inch, and when we got back to the base, the bottom of this pillar had a crack running through it- the pillar may be entirely unsupported, so be careful. In general, Mt. Wilson and the Ghost are having fabulous seasons, there are a lot of rare things in condition this year. The snowpack is big so use some prudence, but this weekend seemed surprisingly stable. Has the potential to change quickly, as always...

I'm sorry, but I disagree with this. They could have met the same fate climbing the south side in the middle of summer- it has happened before and will happen again. What "did them in" was likely a series of mistakes and fateful decisions- indeed, being in the wrong place at the wrong time could have been one of them, but to say that "climbing a hard route on Mt. Hood in winter" is the sole cause relies entirely on hindsight. It is entirely possible to safely climb any hard route, anywhere, anytime of year. If your driving on a remote road, and pass a gas station without filling up, then run out of gas 60 miles down the road, what is to blame? Driving on remote roads? Or the decision to not fill up? Look everyone wants a packaged lesson to learn from this. There probably isn't going to be one. As a long time climber I don't see much to learn here. In hindsight every accident was avoidable, climbing or otherwise. People make wise decisions and unwise decisions, the latter being the ones made without insight. This story has spawned yet another debate about "risk taking" and why people climb, focusing on and blaming the activity instead of the mind that is engaged in it. If I've learned one thing in climbing it is that intuition is never wrong, and that when there is insight, there is no risk. That's all I will say on the matter.

Supposedly Colin is writing a feature article. Either way, with the route done in late July, the next two issues (17/18) were probably already in production. Most likely you'll see something in #19...patience, patience!

H.U.V.A. Network- Distances Solar Fields- Reflective Sequences Killer ambient and atmospheric grooves.

Jon, I know exactly what you are saying. However, where do you think slabs form? No, of course they don't form in the steep gully you are climbing. They form on the snow slopes that the some gullies rolls off into, for starters. This shot from the other thread: shows that one of the gullies the climbers might have taken (the left one) ends in a 40+ degree snowbowl hanging over the route...a bowl which faces north/northeast- i.e. the lee side of the prevailing south/southwest winds of this storm. The likelihood of deposition and/or cross loading in that bowl is high to say the least! And with the amount of new snow natural releases are probably occurring as we speak. You do not have to be standing on dangerous snow to die in an avalanche and there are countless examples proving that.

Not ON the route-- how about low angle terrain lying above the route? Huntington Ravine by the way is the scene of more than one avalanche death from slides releasing above the gully.

In high winds, 23" of new snow will feel very much like 10' of new snow while trying to tent camp in the wrong place. A partner and I once spent an entire night near Alta Vista on Mt. Rainier- that's treeline- digging continuously, taking shifts, just trying to keep the tent above the surface. In the morning, outside our walled in tent site, there was "only" about 2 feet of new snow. My point is that 23" of new snow isn't something to pooh-pooh whether it's Alaska or Oregon. For someone who has endured Denali storms, your lack of understanding of this is surprising- especially because I suspect that your "10 feet of snow in one night" is more likely 4 to 5 feet that drifted in your tent site that was probably dug in about the same amount. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the drifts were 10+ feet. No doubt that Alaska snowfalls can approach ridiculous amounts, but 10 feet of measured depth on an unobstructed slope equates to an average of 15" an hour over an 8 hour night. The biggest snowfall I've been in in Alaska involved about 9 feet of new, undrifted, snow which took about 50 hours to fall. Even at that rate, we thought we were going to be buried alive, and there sure as hell wasn't any sleeping going on. Sorry to nitpick your statistics but the amount of experience you seem to have makes your questions and (seeming) accusations all the more perplexing.