mattp

Yeah, the precious UW Rock is very important. I think they should just can the entire project right now.

Yup. On the one hand, it is only natural that we are all going to pay closer attention to things in our own neighborhood than a similar project slated to be built accross town somewhere. We are also more likely to be impacted by the project planned for our neighborhood so not only are we likely to know more about it, we are also entitled to have our comments given greater weight than those of someone who lives accross town. On the other hand, there is the selfish motivation to do what protects our property values at the expense of everybody else. From what I know of discussions about this project, the Montlake neighborhood residents are not the only group expressing concerns about this project. Parks and open space advocates, the University, Arboretum supporters, and people on various sides of the build more/less roads debate are among those who are talking about it. Also U Village. On balance, I think it is a good thing if these kinds of stakeholders are involved and not just the Washington Department of Transportation, highway contractors, and the Mayor's office.

You also have to keep your eye off the target. When the snake is preparing to bite the frog, he doesn't look at it. I bet few of the mods asked to become mods. Maybe none of them.

Fern gives a good answer here, but I'll add a different view - though the basic point I'm adding is that "it depends" rather than a disagreement. Depending on how you are managing your climb, the engineering of a "power point" may not be necessary. Given what I think is the premise of your post - you are at a station where there are two bolts installed near each other and probably side-by-side, you can simply clip into one with a knot on your lead rope and "back-up" to the other with a sling or your personal leash connecting your harness to the other. This may save a few 'biners in the process as well as eliminate extra links in the chain between you and the rock. If you have extra climbers, or want to hang a pack, or if the climber who lead the previous pitch is going to lead the next one, or for some other reason I have not thought of but in the interest of promoting the flexibility that Fern notes is desireable, I often put a "master biner" on the bolts at the belay (preferably locking one's, if I have them handy), and then clip to these biner's anything I am attaching there. This allows me to move things around, to leave the belay or do whatever it is I might subsequently want to do without having to unweight or unclip something I don't want to unweight or unclip. You could use a draw in this fashion, but I usually don't want to "waste" a draw for this purpose, and the use of a draw probably only introduces an extra 6" and an extra 'biner into the system. Having said this, though, I handle the belays differently based on a variety of factors and sometimes the cordelette or engineering of a "power point" with slings is a good way to keep things clean.

I linked The Tooth, Alpental Falls, Camp Muir, and Arrowhead Peak, and then took a solem oath never to disclose how the selection process is run.

I believe you are wrong on both counts there, Catbird. Those who have been given the silver chalice have neither been acquaintances of nor necessarily liked by those who grant the moderator status.

I really like the bush movie. If you guys will give me "rights," maybe I'll add a link to it on the Darington Rock Climbing website.

I too have been unhappy with the "lifetime" of my five ten shoes although I used to buy them exclusively for the rubber. Lately I have found a good fit with some Sportiva's, and I have wide EE feet though my heels are relatively narrow. But my most recent pair of Sportiva's has stretched and softened up distrubingly fast and I am not convinced they are necessarily going to last longer (though it was a "cheaper" model that I cannot remember the name of). My old Kaukulators are pretty good, though.

The forecast I see indicates there will be a "chance of showers." Depending on what they say that chance turns out to be, I'll be ready to head up there anyway. I could probably climb Silent Running to replace old bolts there even on a slightly damp day. But I'll wait and make that call a little later in the week.

I think I'm looking for a partner for Sunday, as right now my Saturday partner says he's out for Sunday though I plan to twist his arm. Anybody wanna do some cragg maintenance or possibly explore? Send a PM. There are a few things I'd like to do in Darrington before the year is out.

Yup. That is the unfortunate downside of regulation. As they said in communist Russia: "if you want to make an omlette you have to break some eggs." But concerns for individual property rights should argue in favoer of paying attention to elections and holding public officials accountable and maybe tweaking the system so that it is not so much tilted in favor of developers - not for abandoning the concept of land use regulation.

Here's an excerpt from the 1989 Washington Rock Climbs guide by Jeff Smoot: Might one or the other of these be near where you climbed?

Way to go, guys! There may be a few bushes over there, and a tad bit of lichen, too, but it is a cool walll, no? That dome is way special.

The driving road/approach description in selected climbs is fine. I've got a more detailed and up to date topo here: web page

Troggy's right. If you go to Outer Space on a saturday, you gotta be ready to share it with folks who climb faster than you, or who may be trying to pass you, or who don't do things your way at a belay, or whatever.

Dru- Have you actually tried this? I'd be interested to hear from someone who has actually tried this method - either in practice or in a real rescue situation. It is easy to picture a slight advantage over having the "victim" fumble with prussiks down in the hole, but my own experience with jumars or prussiks usually involves one of them attaching to my waist rather than two feet, and I bet that is more often then not necessary even if the guys "up top" are hangling the rope management. As a side note, perhaps only slightly off-topic, I'd say that with a party of four or more it is probably easier to just haul the poor guy out of the crevasse.

Get the bike chain lube or the Metolious product if you can, but I've had decent results with the WD-40 too. Over the years I have used various products - including silicon, graphite, wd-40, and bike chain lube - and I think the silicon seemed no good but everything else has worked generally OK. I'd be careful to try not to get any of it on the sewn slings.

A good, succinct discussion. Germane to the "bolt clipping" thread.

muja says that the stiff side of the dogbone is for the bolt, and I don't think this is quite correct. Yes, it is true that it works well as muja describes - as a reach extender - to use the stiff end to clip a bolt. However, I believe the reason for the rubber thingy's development was that it kept the active 'biner - the one the rope flutters through - oriented properly. Securely attached to the draw, it cannot flip over so as to become cross loaded when the actual catch is made. The only time I've ever broken a 'biner during a fall was when it ended up cross-loaded. Regardless of which end is which, however, all of this discussion points to the fact that there are all kinds of variables at play, and in each individual case there may be factors that weigh in favor of gates facing the same way vs opposite, stiff vs. floppy draws, etc. There have been lots of times when I've clipped a draw, stood there eyeing the next move, and wondered if it was worth it to reverse the gate or swap for one with a locker on it, or ...

I don't know the answer to that question. It was a draw from "the other guy's rack" and I don't care enough which way they face to have noticed that particular fact. It was fine when I led on it, but when I started to yard a bunch of rope up through it for a belay, the draw rotated upward and the 'biner unclipped from the rope.

I had one do this just this past Sunday as I pulled the extra rope through it to belay the second.

I like the Helium's.

Off topic slightly, but Mr. Legs I can tell you I'd be very unhappy with your rack if it consisted entirely of the "typical" wiregates with a very aggressive hook and sharp "nose" on the gate opening. They catch on stuff and are a damn nuisance to get wired stoppers out of and can even be a pain when unclipping a tripled runner yet they unclip themselves when racked on your harness and I wonder if the lead rope may too unclip itself some time. Further don't work for a 'biner break. I'd be a lot more uncomfortable with a rack entirely of these than I would with a rack where the guy had the draws clipped backwards - though I could deal with it if my partner said they were uncomfortable with what I have.

Ivan, I have had that happen almost exclusively with wire gate carabiners, with an aggressive "nose" next to the wire gate opening, and mostly with ice screws or with a stiff-stemmed gizmo device like a TCU. It mostly happens at a belay where the piece of gear gets pushed onto something and therefore pushes back against the gate, and if you play with one you can easily see the mechanism for this. I bet turning them around WOULD reduce this unfortunate occurence. Meanwhile, I fear that these same 'biners may be more likely to unclip the lead rope if you clip in the dreaded gate-toward-travel orientation than might some other type of 'biner.

I agree with those who say it is not all that important, but in my opinion it is just plain obnoxious to carry on about how stupid the question is, and to turn this thread into an argument about whether or not it is a good question. Personally, I prefer having them both face the same way. I like this mostly because I have just grown used to it after being told, thirty years ago, that you want to avoid having carabiner gates face the rock and it is more often the case that both ends of the draw are going to be in the same vertical corner then it is that they might be in corners facing opposite directions. But for me this is as much a left-over practice from older ideas in trad climbing than based on any real consideration of sport climbing realities. The post about how it is easier to clip with the gate facing toward the climber has some merit. Assuming that most of the time you are not thereafter going to traverse past that bolt to climb on the far side of it, it might -more often than not - be better to have the 'biners facing opposite directions. I'm sure there are fifty arguments either way, and I would not be surprised if Dru is correct that there is not really a "correct" way. Call me dumb, but I think it is rude to pile on the original post or attempts to actually answer the question.