ryland_moore

I was playing "Devil's Advocate" Eric!

Stewart, I don't think you are wrong. Tvash, yeah, that is what i was taking from it. But again, that was what he, as a man, was saying, probably from his individsual point of view, but he would not go so far as to say that he could speak on God's behalf and that she would not reach heaven if she acted on her feelings. I would not agree with her pastor here. Also, any of y'all check on the video "First Ascent"? Really cool movie, but one of the best climber's in the world, Didier Berthod is a devout Christian . He also seems to have a really cool perspective on climbing and what it means in his life. I highly recommend it.Not your typical 5.15 sendfest of a route that has been beaten into submission all for the glory of appearing on a climbing vid with your favorite track playing in the background.

Defining specific sections within a religion is next to impossible. I greww up thinking all Southern Baptists were snake handlers who spoke in toungues and were not allowed to danceor have fun. I grew up thinking Jerry Fallwell was crazy ( I still do). So, labeling someone as Christian and having the same or similar beliefs may be totally off base. I would considersomeone who believes in Christianity and someone who labelsthemsleves a fundamentalist Christian as two almost completely different things. Same as I would label polygamists and mormons astwo totally different things (in present day)

I guess I was trying to make it more general for others. In Christianity, yes, you can make it to heaven if you accept Jesus as your Saviour. There was a great documentary on last night about a teen lesbian who was Christian in the south somewhere and was being ostracized by her church because she came out of the closet. She actually met with her pastor and confronted him with som e of the issues she was dealing with in regards to her faith and with being gay. It was pretty impressive to see the pastor's response. he said, "I am not the one who judges you, He is." So I interpret to mean that all people regardless of gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs can all go to heaven.

I am not sure about areas. I grew up in the deep south and was raised in the Episcopal church, but now would consider myself a non-denominational Christian. Do I believe in a higher power? Sure. Do I believe in all that the Bible says? Not necassarily. Especially when dealing with wording on Creation. However, in regards to other issues such as the gay and lesbian community, aboration issues, etc. in the end I believe you will either be accepted into heaven (whatever that is) or not. You will be judged based on how you live your life. Will I get there? Who knows. I've done some pretty stupid stuff in my life. Everybody "sins" whether you are Christian or not. So, it is not like Christians can say that they are going to heaven becasue they are hetero and those that are gay are not. To me it just isn't that simple. Also, it is tuff for me, becasue I do not necassarily believe being gay is a choice. And so there are a ton of gay Chri tians out there who are totally trapped. They can live their life in a Christian minner and not necessarily go to heaven because the Bible says that God is against it. In the end though, I believe we will all be judged, whther it is by a God, on a spiritual level or some other level. I would not pretend to have all of the answers, nor would I ever push my beliefs on anyone else. And finally I do not think others are "wrong." They just achieve their spiritual needs i a different manner. Maybe that is not being a true Christian if there is a definition, but that is what I choose to belive. As an aside, there is a relatively new Christian church that just started up in Portland that focuses on the environment and protecting the environment, and being in portland, they already have a ton of new members.

I doubt the manufacturer eats it, since it is REI's policy to accept someone's retrurn when nothing is wrong with it mechanically. But I do see your point. Or maybe REI is the big box wal-Mart of the outdoor world, where, becasue they do so much volume from the manufacturers, they can dictate to the manufacturers what to do with returns (ie. eat the cost, or we will not carry your product anymore). In that case, then buy 3 or 4 sets of tools, take them all out at once, whack them to hell and return all the opthers that you don't like. Good to keep in mind. Has anyone ever refused to buy gear just to use it for the weekend and then returned it when finished? I say you could outfit a whole trip like this with ropes, pro, gear, or a week-long kayak expedition up in the San Juans, or a big bike tour somewhere. What would prevent anyone from doing something like this and returning everything, except for a guilty conscience?

REI accepts returns on climbing gear!? This only reaffirms why I never shop at REI. I wonder if they have the same policy for biners, cams, ropes, and harnesses? I am sure everyone else has opinions on this, but I would never buy ss"used" or even "pre-sold" climbing gear from anyone. This includes buying used tools. I guess tools are less likely to have failure issues, as well as crampons, but most places will not take any climbing gear back. remember the guy that was trying to sell a once used ice axe on cc.cm a week or so ago, becasue he bought the wrong length?gear stores typ cally do not take this gear back, nor would I ever buy climbing gear from a store that does. That is cool that the place in Banff rents high-end tools. I still think the best way to try them out is to go to a climbing comp like the one they used to have in Lillooet or check out Ouray or Bozeman, or just go climb with a bunch of guys with different tools.

What your title to the thread states and what you discuss are two different things. I think I can justify that almost all aspects of climbing are a bit contrived. I may agree with you a little more that dry-tooling a sport route without any ice is more contrived than say, putting up three sport routes within ten feet of each other, but to say that ice climbing is contrived and then discuss dry-tooling a sport route, then I think you may have missed it Kevbone. Everyone will argue what they feel is right, but yes, as a mediocre ice climber, I would have to say that what Gadd did was contrived. Now with that said, I would think sport climbers would have more of an issue with what he did than anyone, especially if it scarred the rock or changed holds on route. I see dry tooling on established areas/climbs as bad juju, but I also see a place for dry-tooling just as I see a place for gym climbing.

JH, do you mean "Religion" in an organizational way or in "Religion' in the belief of a God way? I think you should differentiate. If it is the former, then I can see where you might have some issues. If it is the latter, then I would feel sorry for you.....

I doubt there is anywhere that has all of the nicest tools for you to try out or rent. If any shops even have one set of ice tools, I am sure they are old skool x-15s or the like. Also, if you buy them, I am sure they are treated like all other climbing gear and are not returnable. Ice axes are not, nor are crampons. I think your only chance is to go to an ice comp where you can demo gear or go with friends who have different tools to try out....

Just drove back from Tri-Cities and there is a lot of ice around Ainsworth. There is a line to the right (west) of the main Ainsworth lines that is fully connected and "looked to be in" and about 3 pitches long. Sorry Glassgow if I offend you with this comment on being "in". Maybe I should clarify: I would go check it out with tools and gear if I had the day off tomorrow morning. There are also lines on the east side of the Ainsworth face that I have never even remotely seen come in like they are. The main lines of Ainsworth are not fully connected. Mist is in on the lower right, but would be pretty wet underneath, and there are a few other long lines past Biggs that might be climbable. There may be something "in" to the right of Mist as well, but hard to tell from the distance. Wish I could go out again this weekend, but got the Hall Pass the last three weekends in a row..... Caveat: I could not tell how thick the ice was, but the ice around Ainsworth was white and not opaque if that helps....

I bet Dan H has it!

The potential lines east of Biggs are still in. I drove from PDX to Tri-Cities today and there is a ton of ice along 84. Some very thin, but if it stays cold a few more days there are some potential FAs in the WI 4-5 range that would be pretty amazing....

The iinjured climber was located by another climber descending, who also happened to be a doctor carrying a cell phone. They called SR by cell. The MLU was activated, but am not sure if the signal was picked up prior to the doctor finding him.

Thanks Alex. Yeah, we thought we were on Second on the Left. That first pitch is great! Looks like you could top rope that climb too if you came across the ledge from 3rd on Left for those not wanting to lead WI4. We also rapped off of a fir tree to the left of the climb tying a 70 meter and 60 meter rope together. Two 60s should work as well. Also, that second pitch looks like it would definitely go for a hardman! The right side of the column looks like it would make it a little easier, but not sure if it will hold on much longer in the sun. It was still really cold, but the rock may warm that upper pitch up beyond it being able to hold on.

Trip: Strobach Ice - Date: 1/27/2007 Trip Report: Me and four buddies headed to Strobach on Saturday looking for ice after reading various reports over the last two weeks. We scored a sled for the long 6 miles in and left Portland at 4:30am. It took us longer than we estimated to get to the FS road and arrived around 8:30am. We geared up and tried to figure out how to fit 5 guys plus gear on one sled. We were able to make this work by having the driver wear his pack and two others on each side standing on the rails while pulling two skiers. Amazingly this worked very well. At the junction of FS Rd. 570 and 1201 (and after missing 570 completely and realizing our mistake at the junction of 1202 and Tieton Rd) we stopped to consult the map to make sure we were turning onto Rd. 1201. When we went to get back on the sled, it would not go. We thought the breaks were on, messed with the drive train, and even bled the break fluid foregoing breaks in hopes to get the sled to go but to no avail. Finally we got the bright idea of checking the tread to see if it had frozen, and of course that was the problem. At least we knew it was cold enough for the ice to still be around! We headed on up and after taking FS Rd. 1201 to the end and realizing our mistake again, we doubled back to Rd. 609 turn-off and headed up to the end, but not before blowing the belt on the sled. Luckily we had a spare (although it was an old one). We slogged in for about 45 mins. and finally reached the ice. Being that it was now 1:00pm, we decided not to head too far into the motherload and jump on the first ice that looked appealing. We decided on a nice line going at WI 4+ and a full 60 meters, that looked to have a serious second pitch of around WI 5+/6 and slightly overhanging pillar at the bottom. I think this may be "Second on the Left". Even though the guidebook says "unclimbed" I am sure someone has done this first pitch, because it was so classic. It starts with fairly steep ice and only eases back one time until finishing with a steep and completely vertical section for about 40 feet to the top of the ledge. Tim Garland led it in style and Jesse Woods and I followed. Meanwhile, Matt Wills and Scott Kastengren were climbing First on the Left. They did the first pitch and did not have time to venture up one of the various options for the second pitch. We rapped off just as night was falling and we did not make it to the woods after the boulder field before we were turning on the headlamps. We made it back out to the sled under clear skies and a nice bright moon. Tim and I skied down while the other three rode the sled. We made it back at the same time as the sled (due to the sled not having breaks and missing the turnoffs and having to turn around each time) as you can ski the entire way down with only minimal polling. I never had to take the skis off once. We made it back to the car around 7pm and to some really cold beers. We loaded everything up and headed to Naches for some Nachos (Mexican food and beer) and rolled back into PDX around midnight. Thoughts on the Trip: This place is amazing with a ton of lines in right now. These routes collectively blow Leavenworth out of the water and are on par with Banks Lake. There are a lot of climbs close together and there is a ton of area yet unexplored. We will be going back, with a sled, and will stay for a weekend at a minimum. Even if we had been dialed in and got to the area sooner, we likely would have stayed until dark, so the trip time would not have been shorter, we just would have climbed more ice. We ran into a group of two climbers in the parking lot who were going in on foot. They had turned around after the first mile because they said it was just too far to get in there and climb. I would have to agree. Unless going in for a weekend, or if you really have the trip dialed and are fast, it would be more enjoyable over a weekend. Or simply take the second appraoch mentioned in the guidebook if going in on foot. Notes on Ice and conditions: The ice we saw and climbed was amazing. Sun did get on 2nd on Left and Third on Left and other climbs closer to the woods like Primus Sucks. There appeared to be a new line not mentioned in the guidebook between Primus Sucks and 3rd on the Left. There is also a shorter line that came in between 2nd on Left and 1st on Left, but very short. It's second pitch would be a wild mixed line. The first pitch of Second on Left was awesome. The ice was very plastic and was a little deteriorated at the very top, where it gets the most sun. The deathcicles looming above on the second pitch did not let loose (except a little when the sun first hit it) and were dripping with water until the sun set, then abruptly stopped and were likely re-freezing. Matt and Scott reported ice on First on Left a little different. They reported very hard ice that dinner plated even on face ice and took 3-5 strikes just to sink the tool and to clear the few top layers of ice. Matt, who leads WI 5 comfortably, stated the ice was in layers and very brittle as it never sees sun. When Scott got on the TR, the whole line shuddered and settled at which point they both quickly got off and cleaned the route and headed back. All in all, this was as much an exploratory trip as anything else. We learned a lot about the area and will be back again. It is in an awesome setting, you feel totally removed from anything and the views over to Rainier are incredible. We had stellar High Pressure weather and it remained cold the entire day. This ice should be around for a while, especially those on the right side of Separation gulley, which did not see sun the entire day. I would say that a day trip from Portland (20 hrs. for us) can be a little much and a full weekend would be perfect for this place. Plus, there is so much ice we would not have left if we had the gear. One note to Alex and Jason. The route description of Second on Left states, "Climb a short, low angle flow to a steep pillar above." I would say that this first full rope-length flow is neither short nor low-angle. It is solid WI 4 and fully vertical at the top as you can see from the pictures. Either that or we have no clue what we were climbing! I would say this is an accurate description for Third on the Left. Finally, go get out there! It does rival almost any other ice climbing area in the Pacific Northwest! Thanks to Sobo and Alex for quality beta.

It has to make you wonder if the only reason we are seeing so many new first ascents this year is because of the unusual amount of precip we got back in November/Early December or is it just more people out there exploring. I'd have to say that I think the unusual amount of rain we got has helped a lot for the desert climbing as this place was cold enough the last two years (when the Gorge was going off) but the drips just did not have the amount of water they do this year. I think Eastern Oregon and Washington have always had the potential, but it may just take the right combination of moisture and temps. The desert usually does not have the moisture component. Sm exception would be ice in the Wallowas and Elkhorns near Baker City. You can try to PM Terminal Gravity from this site and see if he'll give up the beta on existing climbs. Another place that is probably rarely explored during the winter is the Snake River Canyon on the Oregon side around Imnaha and the Steens Mountains. Owyhee Canyon as well? Grab some BLM maps and head out there. Note: There are disclaimers on all public lands maps that say they may not be accurate. I found this to be the case while hunting ove by Fossil, OR. Trust signage over general maps. Yes, I bet there are a ton of climbs out there on public lands. I have seen a ton of potential on public lands when bird hunting for chukar. Heck, I saw more ice then I ever have on highway 84 on Saturday!

Glad you are still with us. You are very, very lucky......I am sure you learned a great deal from this experience. Hind sight is a bitch, isn't it?

Are you implying that people would climb the rock or just being sarcastic?

Trip: Oregon Ice First Ascents - 1/20/07 - Ramblin' Man, Paradice, Rocky's Revenge Date: 1/20/2007 Trip Report: January 20, 2007 Myself, Tim Garland of Redmond, and Scott Kastengren of Portland headed east to check out potential ice lines on private property I had seen the last two years.Note: There may be a possibility that these are not first ascents, if someone poached or illegally accessed the property. The ranch has been in the family since the early 1900's and the landowner has never let anyone on the property for climbing of any kind. That is the main reason we feel these are first ascents. We called the landowner on Thursday to ask if we could head out on his property to look for potential ice lines. He granted us permission and we geared up. We had scouted the ice last weekend, but it just wasn't in to where we felt comfortable leading them. Saturday morning, Scott and I left PDX at 5:30 am and met Tim out at a predetermined spot. As soon as we started seeing the ice, we knew that we would be in for a long day of sending. (FA)Ramblin' Man - WI 3, 55 meters Ryland Moore, Tim Garland, Scott Kastengren We started out on a warm-up WI 3 climb. I took the sharp end on this one and then Tim and Scott each led it after. We followed some cow tracks up to the base of the climb. It was a four-tiered series with 70 degrees to almost vertical ice "steps" each about 20 feet high, separated in between with about 5-10 feet of flat ice leading to the next tier. The ice was solid and we were sinking 17 cm screws without hitting anything. The 3rd tier was actually a smooth ice runnel very confined and about 60 degrees in steepness. Very fun route and we ran out of rope right at the top of the climb. We named it "Ramblin Man" at WI 3 for the lower two tiers of ice and 55 meters. I walked off the climb to the right and we cleaned it, since all of us led it, by rapping with two ropes off of an ice screw and large boulder. (FA)Paradice - WI 4, 50 meters: Tim Garland, Scott Kastengren, Ryland Moore We headed back to this this line and were not sure if it would go because the lower part of the second step looked "thin". Tim Garland decided he would take the sharp end. We could hear water rushing behind the first free-hanging ice curtain of the lower step. Tim climbed up the curtain (20 feet high) to a flat rest about 10 feet in diamter. He headed over to the left and sunk another screw. He climbed up and right and the ice was surprisingly thick and solid. He styled it out to a corner on the right and up to the top and out of view for another 35 feet. Scott and I followed on top-rope and we all felt that it was one of the best ice climbs we have ever done anywhere. The ice was very plastic and sticks came easily the entire way. Tim decided to call this climb "Paradice" which is very fitting for the setting we were in and WI4. One awesome climb. There is a second short pitch to this climb, which unfortunately was in the sun and was barely hanging on. Another 30 feet of flat walking and there is a short 10-foot step and then another 30-40 foot completely hanging curtain to finish it all off. Because this upper part is in the sun, it will likely rarely form. We walked off but could have set a V-thread. Just easier to walk off! We ate a late lunch and then decided to go check an even more remote spot that we had looked at the previous weekend through binocs. (FA)Rocky's Revenge - WI 5 20 meters: Tim Garland, Ryland Moore We eyed a shorter (and closer) single pitch line that was almost touching down last weekend and looked to be in from the binocs. It was getting late in the day, so we thought we could get down to the bottom of the canyon and climb the route and back out by dark. We headed down the deep canyon and after about a 45 minute approach, we could see the line quite well. We headed up to the base to find a 20 feet free hanging ice curtain followed by another 40 feet of WI 3 to the top. The ice curtain was barely hanging on and only a few feet thick at the base and about 3 feet wide at the most. Tim manned up and took the sharp end. He styled the ice curtain and it did not so much as groan or creak. He moved smoothly through the crux to the easier and much welcomed WI 3 section. I followed and really struggled on the lower curtain. It was harder than any WI 5 I've Tr'ed at Lee Vining or Lillooet. I literally flailed on the lower section and will happily admit that without leashes I would have definitely come off. The last 40 feet are awesome WI 3 to the top. Short but pumpy! Tim set an anchor off a huge boulder and rapped off. I cleaned the route and anchor and walked off to the left. We hiked out of the canyon and did not get back to our cars until it was dark. Overall, it was an awesome day, great ice in amazing condition considering it was about 40 degrees most of the day, and best of all it was in Oregon! Note: This post is to share with you information that there is ice in Oregon! Unfortunately, I cannot share the location with anyone as it is on private property and the landowner does not want the liability of others climbing on their property. Please do not poach any ice or rock for that matter without landowner permission. This property is heavily posted with "No Trespassing" signs and they have called the sherriff on poachers/hunters in the past. There are still plenty of FAs to be had out there, but with the warm weather on us, it looks as if they may be gone for a while. Two other potential FAs to the left of Paradice had completely crashed to the ground and were mere wet spots on the rock as they faced SE, while Paradice simply faces due East. Both Ramblin' Man and Rocky's Revenge face North and are in canyons, so less likely to fall down, but the curtain on Rocky's was barely hanging on. Ice season in Oregon ain't over yet!

5.5 to 6 hours.....I drove it in summer to Tri Cities then north and cut over to Colfax, WA and down. If you go through Lewiston and back down the Snake on the other side it actually takes longer....There are 1st ascent possibilities closer to PDX than the Palouse

I don't know if I'd tust my Subie on some of those Palouse loess wet dirt roads!

I have driven every dirt single road from Rosalia South to Wawaiwai Canyon and East to Central Ferry State Park and North to Winona this past summer. I literally spent three straight weeks driving these roas to document dwater right use. In the process I got to see some amazing potential for ice as well as scope out some awesome upland bird hunting. Drop me a PM and you guys can Do check some other areas out I thought might be promising. The key is to find the break in the Wanapum and Grande Ronde basalts where water would seep out and are exposed. I will be out there next Wednesday (meetings in Colfax and Spokane)if you want me to go over some maps (Gazateer) I could point you to some good spots*****Caviat: A lot of those dirt roads, while named and public, can be really difficult to travel on during the winter without four wheel drive.....

No that it has relieved some of its stresses and tensions, it should be in great form tomorrow after it refreezes (assuming it will)!