stacking aerobic before strength?

[forrest_m]

I have a question about my winter workout routine. I'm training for technical alpine climbing, not "mountaineering" or "rock climbing"; (although obviously it's all related). I'been doing some research and have found that there are two conflicting philosophies about this kind of training. On one hand, some people recommend "stacking" strength workouts on top of aerobic workouts, as this more closely simulates the conditions you encounter on a long climb. Your muscles become accustomed to performing when they've already been somewhat depleted.

 

Other sources, however, claim that your training will be much more efficient if any particular area is fully recovered before your workout, i.e. you would get better effect for the same total workout time if you did a long, hard aerobic workout one day and strength training to failure another.

 

What do you think?

 

[freeclimb9]

I think that a training schedule that consists of "a long, hard aerobic workout one day and strength training to failure another" will result in fatigue and injury. Also, the "stacking" regime you describe won't yield the highest attainable increases in aerobic capacity and strength.

If you're gung-ho for training, a two workout per day schedule (like a morning run and an afternoon weight session) is a better alternative. Be aware that gains in endurance and strength come from adequate rest after exertion. You need truly easy days in a training schedule.

 

[Bronco]

what happened to Courtnay? Did we get dumped?

 

Anywho- stacking in that manner is great for getting your neurological and nervous systems in order for pushing your limits. I agree with freeclimb's assesment that your physical gains won't be as great as if you were letting your muscles fully recover, but stacking is also important to do if you can't get out at least one day a week for actual climbing. I have trained in that manner when I can't climb and had pretty good results. I also managed to cut some weight doing that workout and think it was muscle so you may want to consider a protien supplement for right after the workout, (beer does not count).

 

[RobBob]

I'd like to get the low-down on this subject also. I was reading a triathlon training article last night that suggested that spreading workouts rather than stacking was better. There seems to be different info in different athletic pursuits. Isn't there data on this?

[freeclimb9]

I'd like to get the low-down on this subject

The low-down is that fitness and nutrition is a wide open field for further research. To give you an idea, check out http://www.pponline.co.uk/ for some differing ideas on training. In my experience and observation, for alpine climbing an overall strength program (i.e. weight training) where you lift for a few to four times per week coupled with some LSD aerobic training (Long Slow Distance) suits me the best for maintaining fitness (it's not so hard that it's a bitch to keep training). When a specific goal approaches, I up the effort on the strength and aerobic parts. For increasing maxVO2, it's pretty clear that interval running at a 5K pace works great. Cycling also is a great way to train via 3 minute interval sprints, or hill climbs. I strongly believe in the benefits of an overall weight program; it helps with climbing, it lets your body adapt quickly to other stresses, and it prevents injury. All good.

Bottom line is that doing something is better than doing nothing.

[forrest_m]

fc9 -I appreciate the ideas, and I agree that for alpine climbing a mix of strength and aerobic training is important. I think I have a pretty good idea of the importance of resting and injury prevention. But none of that relates to what I'm curious about right now, which I'll rephrase as follows: for a given number of hours of exercise, is it better (in training for alpine climbing) to stack strength training and aerobic workouts on the same day, or to separate them onto separate days?

 

For example, here is the workout schedule I am contemplating for the next 3 months. I am planning a major trip in june, so my idea is to spend the next three months focusing on "core strength", then to ramp up various specific areas over the following three, aiming to peak in early june.

 

Tuesdays: weight training, possibly with some gym climbing concentrating on endurance ~2 hours

Wednesday: 1.5 hour yoga class, muscular endurance + flexibility/injury prevention

Thursday: aerobic stacked with weight training, i.e. 1 hour hill-climb workout on bike on the way to gym, then 1 hour weights or climbing wall

Saturday or Sunday: something outside, skiing or climbing or if I'm stuck in the city, long aerobic workout, (~2 hours)

 

With this program, I get 5 workout sessions a week, but at least 3 rest days - about as much as I can do and keep my job, not get sick, stay motivated, etc. What I'm wondering is if I'd be better off making all the workouts "stacked" or trying to separate them, i.e. alternate weeks of aerobic vs. weights, etc.

 

[Highlander]

The schedule you have looks like a good one. You can also train in 14-21 day blocks were you do most of your workouts stacked, then have a recovery week where you would only workout three days (not stacked) to allow you body to rest and rebuild (Zatopeck Phenom).

[jon]

When your stacking your weight workout after cardio there are a few things you need to consider. First is what is the point? Are you trying to build up your muscle/strength endurance or your maximum strength. If it's the later you definately don't want to do it when your body is already wasted. One thing I do when I'm doing stack or brick workouts is alternate which muscles I'm targeting, for instance if I do a hard swim when I lift I'd go hard on the legs and maybe do some light weights on the upper body. After a long bike I would just lift upper body.

 

Probably the most important thing in working out is recovering. Everybodies bodies recover differently, some recover faster in general or just in strength or endurance, it's part genetics and part fitness. Plan your recovery like you plan your workout and take into consideration what you know about your body and how it recovers. Plan recovery into your schedule with more importance then the workout itself, like can I do this workout today after work and be able to recover from it with a long day of work tomorrow and other commitments. Don't deprive your body of food, start feeding it literally seconds after your workout, otherwise all the sweat and pain doesn't get you anywhere.

 

Stacks are convenient when you don't have a ton of time, but I must admit that my favorite right now is doing a endurance cardio, followed by a meal and three hours rest, then strength cardio and lifting.

[leejams]

Not sure if this will help but interesting reading the denali training schedule anyhow.

 

http://www.alpineascents.com/training.asp

[Courtenay]

Hi all,

 

Sorry for my absence, I'm no longer getting notified of new posts for some reason (grumble grumble). I've been asked to add my $.02 here, and actually Jon hits the nail on the head with his comment:

 

<<.. first, what is the point? Are you trying to build up your muscle/strength endurance or your maximum strength? If it's the later you definitely don't want to do it when your body is already wasted. >>

 

Think very hard about the actual strength/endurance you'll need in the mountains and train as close as possible for that. Think as well about your unique strengths and weaknesses. You may have the endurance of a horse but lack strength, in which case you're going to put more effort into smart, efficient strength training and probably put it before any cardio, if you choose to stack.

 

If you know that you're going to have to perform for 3-4 or more straight days (Bailey Range traverse, Denali, etc. etc. requiring endurance as well as strength endurance) and you never do more than an hour or two of any consecutive strength/cardio effort during a given week, you're probably not training as effectively as you could be. That's where conditioners come into play that combine both. However, rest is as important as the training, so 85-95% of the time you'll want to optimize your training effort by separating aerobic and strength days OR putting a few rest hours between effort. High intensity interval training (HIIT -- NOT to be confused with single-set HIT please!) done prior to a max effort legs workout, for example, will probably result in extreme fatigue and too-long recovery, whereas if you can do a hard aerobic/interval workout one day and a lighter upper body strength workout later in that same day, then a long distance medium effort cardio workout the following day, follwed by a rest day and then reverse it with hard swimming (upper intervals, for example) and a legs workout, that would work.

 

As for "training to failure" it's our experience at Body Results that keeping a "reserve of two" almost all the time will mean better results (for strength) and better recovery -- see our article: http://www.bodyresults.com/E2RPE.asp for how the Rate of Perceived Exertion relates to strength training.

[forrest_m]

Courtnay - thanks for the info. My performance goals are weighted towards the endurance end, i.e. technically difficult climbing for 3-5 days in a row. If I understand you, you are saying that ideally, my workout would sometimes attempt to simulate this by being very long and involving both aerobic and muscular endurance, but that doing it very often will be counterproductive for training because the recovery period will be too long. It sounds like for me, if I can get out for a full day of climbing or backcountry skiing one day a week, that will probably satisfy this area of my program.

 

I also like your ideas about stacking heavy and light, rather than trying to do 2 equally difficult workouts at a time. Alternating muscle groups makes sense as well, i.e. the aerobic workout also requires some muscle workout to supply the movement, legs for running, arms for swimming, etc, so a stacked weight workout would work other areas. Of course, this is going to require more organization. I guess that's why people hire personal trainers, instead of just getting info off the internet, eh?

 

[Courtenay]

Forrest wrote:

 

<<I also like your ideas about stacking heavy and light, rather than trying to do 2 equally difficult workouts at a time. Alternating muscle groups makes sense as well, i.e. the aerobic workout also requires some muscle workout to supply the movement, legs for running, arms for swimming, etc, so a stacked weight workout would work other areas. Of course, this is going to require more organization. I guess that's why people hire personal trainers, instead of just getting info off the internet, eh? >>

 

Well, that does happen to be a big part of what I do with climbing clients -- you would never believe some of the things people are trying to do out there! I help sort it all out.

 

But yes, you understand correctly -- if you're going to go out and do a really long outing (imagine doing the Pacific Crest Trail from border to border!!) then you're going to need ongoing conditioning to prepare you properly. Doing a series of 4-5 day climbing trips in the summer means during the off season, you'll want to build as much strength and cardiovascular endurance so that you can start to link it together the closer you get to the climbs. Back-to-back days in the mountains is one way of doing it; longer workouts in the gym (for fair-weather climbers) is another. Good luck and thanks for inviting comments.