Message for people that want to bomb our country

[Hayduke]

None of these countries have perfect governments. Neither do we. Sufferage is not a good measure of equality, though it is something.

There are many Americans who are Mulsim and they are as red-white-and-blue as you and me. Yet they still practice their faith. Your mistake is attacking Islam. Islam is not evil, but the people who attacked America are. Do not confuse the two.

I suggest you read:

WOMEN IN ISLAM VERSUS WOMEN IN THE JUDAEO-CHRISTIAN TRADITION: THE MYTH & THE REALITY

by Dr. Sherif Abdel Azeem http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/womeninjud_chr.html

This will offer you a new perspective.

Hayduke lives!

[This message has been edited by Hayduke (edited 09-17-2001).]

[johnny]

Please try to remember that bin Laden does not represent the faith of Islam. He is a thug, not a holy man. A crime has been committed and someone should pay. The people who happen to be living in Afganistan or anywhere else and happen to be Islamic have nothing to do with this.

Uh, climbing anyone? I heard about a website where people could get together and just talk about climbing as if it were really important........

[Paul_C]

I think that the best quote that I have seen on this topic goes something like this.

"Carpet bombing Afganistan to eliminate terrorists will be about as effective as bombing LA to try to kill off street gangs."

There is a opinion piece at www.iranian.com by an iranian filmmaker that I think should be required reading for anyone commenting on the situation in Afganistan. Hell probably 90% of Americans, don't even know where Afganistan is in the world.

While I think justice needs to be served, killing thousands (more) innocent people is not the answer.

On a plus note the PLO and Israel have just agreed to a cease-fire (again).

Paul (no offence, but glad to be a Canadian in this mess)

[Jason_Martin]

Brian,

I think it's time to counter a few of your stands with a little bit more debate.

The language you use to attack the religion of Islam is quite impressive. My favorite part is when you called the Islamic Religion a "spreading disease." Quite similar to Adolf Hitler's premise that that Jews were a disease that had to be stopped. And you know what, he had a great idea to stop the spread of that. He called it the "final solution."

It sounds, Brian, like you have a "final solution" to stop the spread of Islam. Indeed, bombing these countries with nuclear weapons would stop the spread of this religion in those regions. It would also stop the spread of anything else... Like human life.

You have another wonderful premise in your argument. You state that Islam is an affront to women. That in some countries these women are treated with no more respect than a slave might recieve. Your response to this is equally impressive. You've come up with the great idea that if we bomb the hell out of these people it will no longer be a problem. In other words, if you kill all the women -- along with everyone else -- they will no longer be treated like slaves.

You also state that this "religion seems to be incompatible with ideals of liberty and democracy." If this is the case, then why is it that we have so many American Muslims that enjoy their lives in this country? Oh wait... Perhaps they don't. Perhaps we should put them in Internment Camps. Would that work with your idea of democracy Brian?

Your reasoning that we should destroy that part of the world is extremely poor. It's like saying that we should blow up Timothy McVeigh's home state because that's where he was from.

Now seriously... Bin Ladin is not a sane man. He is taking the ideals of Islam out of context. Comparing him to Hitler or Stalin is not a correct notion. He is more like the Islamic version of David Koresh.

Should we retaliate? Of course. Should we kill everybody that lives in that part of the world because their skin is dark and their religion is different... No. Absolutely not. This is where our country is truly being tested. A civilized nation will punish those that are responsible; a brutal and savage nation would drop the bomb.

Yours Truly,

A Bleeding Heart Liberal Western Grad... And proud of it!

[Fairweather]

Jason,

Obviously you did not bother to read the entire string or you would see that I have not advocated killing thousands of innocent people OR Muslims. I find your "Hitler" analogy interesting though as equating any idea or opinion that isn't P.C. in today's world with NAZI evil is standard procedure for university idiots. I guess I had better conform MY ideas to yours, or I'll be labeled a nazi. Where did you learn that tactic? It really takes a lot of thought to present that accusation.

I wonder if you would defend Christianity with the zeal you do Islam. The fact is, secular, elected governments around the world are under seige by Muslim... "extremists". Indonesia, Phillipines, Pakistan to name a few. Their leaders dare not make any political decision without the consent of a cleric or the Islamic masses. I am thankful we live in a country where separation of church and state is (for the most part) law.

Before you rush to the defense of Islam, consider life under one of their religous-dominated governments or the conditions under which ALL of their people live re: personal freedom.

And before you accuse me of NAZI sypathies you should read the entire thread!

[Jason_Martin]

Brian,

Indeed, I did read the entire thread. Thus my response.

Have a great day!

Jason

[Peter_Puget]

While I am not convinced this is a good site for this discussion I must ask exactly what is meant by the term innocent when used in the above posts?

[Charlie]

Here is another email I recieved which I think is worth reading: This is a rational and thought provoking commentary. I think it is important

enough to forward to

everyone you can possibly think of. It comes from Tamim, a writer and

columnist in San Francisco, who comes from

Afghanistan. This is very, very interesting and a little chilling....

* * * *

I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone

Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean

killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity,

but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we

do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the

belly to do what must be done." And I thought about the issues being raised

especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived

here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want

to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing. I

speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in

my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in>New York. I

agree that something must be done about those monsters. But the Taliban and

Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of

Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over

Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you

think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden,think Hitler. And when

you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration

camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this

atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult

if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats

nest of international thugs holed up in their country. Some say, why don't

the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're

starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the

United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in

Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of

widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves.

The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the

Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not

overthrown the Taliban. We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan

back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care

of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level

their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate

their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from

medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs

would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the

Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they

have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs

would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they

don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs

wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific

thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by

raping once again the people they've been raping all this time So what else

is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and

trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground

troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done"

they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed.

Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people.

Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is

Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting

their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than

that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go

through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan

would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see

where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants.

That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right

there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem

ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the

West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those

lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better

from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West

would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and

millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that?

Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

Tamim Ansary

 

 

 

[Alpine_Tom]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian Rybolt:

AlpineTom, Hayduke, and Eddie,

It appears to me that you have all thrived in the world of academia...Western of Evergreen, no doubt

---

If it could possibly matter, I'm an alumnus of the US Naval Academy (80).

There is reams to be said in refutation of your dittohead "ideas" but this is a climbing website, not a poliical debating society.

The aphorism about wrestling in the mud with a pig comes to mind. I have yet to see a political discussion (or argument) that changed anyone's mind.

 

[Hayduke]

I did not go to Western. I am not a liberal. I am a climber. AlpineTom is right, these pages should be for climbing, not politics.

Hayduke lives!

[This message has been edited by Hayduke (edited 09-19-2001).]

[johnny]

I'm with Hayduke, except that I went to Evergreen (GO Geoducks!!), am a liberal(Yeah, I voted for Gore even if he is a republican in disguise), and don't mind women with hairy armpits.

I am still a climber amoung other things and this sort of political debate is best left to some other BB.

Johnny <////<

[Cpt.Caveman]

I find the true sadness is that we have to bicker and argue and we are supposed to be on the same team here.

Give it some thought and you need not respond to this.

How would \ do you feel if your mother father or other family member was a victim?

The next attack could be on you..

Having lived across from a family of Afg. in my teen years I know they are different. However I also know they were good people to me. I treated them like I did anyone else. The usual "Smear the queer", and other sports as well as weightlifting etc. To simply assume that they are all bad is a gross misjudgement. There are bad apples in every box.

I am not going to post here what I think the response from our gorvernment should be because I need not the ridicule.

Just a thought.

-Cpt

[Dru]

I'm glad someone mentioned chicks with pit bush. Woo Woo!!!!

[texplorer]

Three Things that better not happen cause of the "War."

A) Me or my belay partners getting drafted (this will result in time lost from climbing in my prime years)

B)The bombing of any good climbs or mountains

C)The govt seizing up all the aircraft grade aluminum used to make my fine pro

Feel free to add to the list if you wish

[Dru]

4) Shipton Spire getting nuked by a dumb smart bomb.

5) the world supply of falafel being reduced.

[Fairweather]

re: the last few posts; agreed. I did not start the thread, but obviously my comments on Islam hit a nerve with some here. I must say, Hayduke went to the greatest legnths to "enlighten" me, and while my opinion is basically unchanged, I felt compelled by some other's posts to defend my position again and again.

Rest assured that I will say the same about ANY religion whose masses endeavor to supplant or bully elected governments around the globe.

I can't remember who called me a NAZI, but that was offensive and you should rethink presenting such hysterical responses.

Back to climbing...no more political discussion from me. Taking my kids up "Old Snowy" this Sunday.