paranoid yet?

[Greg_W]

Good point RobBob, it seems that the learning process is shortcutting past the theory behind the math, calculus, differential equations, and physics formulae that are applied in engineering and design. That, to me, spells trouble. The best thing we did in school was learn it the long way and then see how the shortcut made things simpler. If the theories are not learned then there is no historical understanding to the concept and therefore no new advances can be made on the concept because all that is known is the end formula.

[sk]

this was a brain popper for me:

 

my first grader is required to do "calculater math"

 

[Uncle_Tricky]

The idea that "if you haven't done anything wrong, then you have nothing to hide" reveals a basic lack of respect and understanding for the principles of the constitution. I value the bill of rights, not because I personally, selfishly NEED them to protect me, but because I think they are innately valuable (or, as our founders put it, God-Given) principles on which to order a just and free society in the first place. When we take those rights away from those who do have something to hide, our own rights have been lost as well, because the same rights serve both citizen and criminal.

[iain]

That sucks Muffy. Kid runs out of AAA batteries and he can't do basic math anymore. But really, who has the time to teach kids long division anymore? Then again, when was the last time you did long division? The trouble with technology is I expected to do 10x as much in 0.5x the time.

[Greg_W]

I knew someone would take mikeadam's post out of context. Defense and Intelligence agencies have to be involved in a certain amount of information gathering; it's a fact of life. I don't feel too great about the TIA, but I also understand the concept and necessity behind it. As yet, I don't see that my Constitutionally-protected rights are being violated. Maybe you guys need to give me some more proof.

[Greg_W]

I do long division often for the basic reason of keeping my skills sharp. In a few years, I am going to have to help my daughter with her homework and it has become more and more obvious that I cannot depend on the State-run education system to completely educate my child.

[RobBob]

So far, the progression of recent technology has been:

 

-develop technology to allow our labor force to compete with lower-cost labor abroad. This lasts a few years or months.

-find a way to use lower-cost labor to operate the more-advanced technology (foreign workers here; overseas switchboards; move factories overseas)

-back to the drawing board for our labor force

[freeclimb9]

Another reason to be paranoid?

Now the Freedom of Information Act can be ignored. Attorney General John D. Ashcroft, who is sworn to enforce all laws, has told federal employees that they can bend -- perhaps even break -- one law, and he will even defend their actions in court.

Last October, the Justice Department cited the Sept. 11 attacks in a memo to federal FOIA officers that stated, "When you carefully consider FOIA requests and decide to withhold records, in whole or in part, you can be assured that the Department of Justice will defend your decisions."

 

This is from a Washington Post article.

[RobBob]

Hey Freeclimb,

 

FOIA ain't what it's cracked up to be anyhow. I made a FOIA request about a federal grant that I believed a competitor was misusing, and after two appeals, I didn't get shit.

[allthumbs]

Iain, if we're riding on the shoulders of others, so be it. Must we reinvent the wheel with every generation? I think not. Technological advancement is simply an ongoing series of baby steps...as is the advancement of the human race. Although for some of you dirtbags out there, I wonder.

 

hehehe

[allthumbs]

Well that's just the chance we take.

 

Miranda rights

[allthumbs]

Greg,I do long division because my kids steal my goddamn calculators.

[iain]

I simply don't trust John Ashcroft at all. His constant superlative speeches about terror and justice get on my nerves. I don't trust someone with that much power who views everything in the world within such a religious context. That position requires objectivity, and from what I have seen, he picks and chooses his "enemies of justice".

[RobBob]

Dear God,

 

Please deliver me and my freedom-loving brethren from the likes of earnest, not-so-bright, religious zealots like John Ashcroft.

 

Yur Faithful Sheep,

 

Rob

[RobBob]

Iain...ESP!

[sk]

I hated long divison in third grade and I hate it now... but I can and do, do it.

 

thanks to the trireless work of Mrs. Neemeth

[iain]

Trask, of course we don't need to start from scratch each time. My point was that we can't look back on witch trials, nazis, etc without realizing that we are still the same people capable of exactly the same thing. Every time there is paranoia and fear, someone is waiting in the wings to step up and take the helm and capitalize on it, uniting us through anxiety to seek out these "enemies". Rights become violated, laws are thrown out the window, until we once again realize that we are still quite the same as those who stumbled down this dangerous road before us. That in itself sounds paranoid, but there is a powerful historical record to back this up, in my opinion.

[Uncle_Tricky]

Screw math. I have a PHD in Guesstimation and a Masters in the Science of the Inexact.

 

Then again, perhaps that's why the place I built is not square, level or plumb...

 

As the old Norwegian carpenter I used to work with always said, "Measure once, cut three times and use the sledgehammer to pound the ill-fitting pieces into place. Then burn the whole piece of shit to the ground and start over. This time measuring twice."

[sk]

I believe it was Tolstoy who said that we must beware of those that refer to this age and time as though it is not connected to times past.

 

I have War and Peace out now and am searching for the quote

[allthumbs]

Iain, maybe. I'm off to Seattle now for company Christmas pictures, so I can't argue about this shit anymore. You fuckers just remember one thing - I'M RIGHT and you're not.

[Rick_Sharpless]

Folks - this whole "if you don't do anything wrong / have anything to hide you don't have anything to worry about" is either disingenuous, or frightfully naive.

 

I'm a trial lawyer. I work in the courts every day. I believe in our justice system and the jury system, and don't for a minute propose doing away with juries or our adversary system of justice. It works better than most.

 

BUT - if you don't think innocent people get prosecuted, that police or DEA or FBI or other witnesses (including criminal defendants) don't from time to time LIE (not make a mistake - that happens too - I'm talking knowing lies), and that juries don't fall for it and convict the innocent a least as often as they exonerate the guilty - well - I would like to offer you some waterfront property in South Florida and maybe a couple of bridges as an investment. I've got news for you - it happens every day, and not as some rare abberation. Sometimes we catch the mistakes, and sometimes, oops, we execute someone, or keep them in jail for twenty years then turn them loose with an "I'm sorry."

 

If you think that those in government only work for benevolent altruistic purposes to hunt down the guilty and protect the innocent, you are way too naive to be making policy. No different than people in every other area, MOST try do do a good job, the right way, but a few/some are after nothing but money, power, pursuing personal agendas, or protecting themselves and their friends. And unlike most others, they have the power to take away from you your life liberty and property.

 

If you still doubt this read Federalist No 51 in whch Hamilton said:

 

"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions.

 

I don't want them to have that power. Poindexter, a known liar, and known to believe that the end justifies the means, scares me way more than Osama. He's not who you would hire if you wanted a clean, honest, altruistic operation.

 

Back to work

[RobBob]

The affairs of man are much more predictable, and related to basic natural things like climatic patterns, than most men and women would like to acknowledge to themselves. Periods of violent upheaval, disease periods, 'dark ages' repeat themselves through history. Hell, even mini-cycles like the stock corrections of the late 80s and 90s (Milken & Boesky then, Enron now) will continue.

[freeclimb9]

It's quite easy to turn the arguement "if you don't do anything wrong / have anything to hide you don't have anything to worry about" back onto the current administration and Ashcroft's declaration of not enforcing the Freedom of Information Act. What would they need to hide if they're weren't doing something wrong, or at least unpopular?

[Greg_W]

Freeclimb - Do you believe in the Freedom of Information Act to the extent that publication of certain information would breach national security and potentially get soldiers killed?

[Muir_on_Saturday]

funny how these islamic extremists attacked us because our open society was so different from theirs, and now in reaction our society is becoming more closed and authoritarian, essentially more like islamic fundamentalist societies. so basically their plan is working beautifully.