CPOly Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Lets tell it like it is, the discovery pass is a job's program. I'm curious as to how you think this is a jobs program? The main agency "benefiting" from this pass (parks) has already had to layoff staff due to projected decreased revenue. Quote
JosephH Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Passes, reservation systems, jury duty, photo rights, speeding tickets, unions, etc., etc., etc. - damn guberment - glad to see someone really making a difference out there... Quote
mr.radon Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Lets tell it like it is, the discovery pass is a job's program. I'm curious as to how you think this is a jobs program? The main agency "benefiting" from this pass (parks) has already had to layoff staff due to projected decreased revenue. Um, clogging up the courts with bogus cases. Mr. Ticket writer checking all the cars. All the extra trips to trailheads every day doing nothing productive. Printing the passes, advertizing the passes, placing posts and signs at all the trail heads. Sounds a lot like a jobs program to me... How about WA take a fact finding mission to CO and see how they fund trailheads for free? Oh, wait that would mean not installing toilets and trash cans at every trailhead and making do with less state workers and less tax dollars. Quote
JosephH Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Um, clogging up the courts with bogus cases. Mr. Ticket writer checking all the cars. All the extra trips to trailheads every day doing nothing productive. Printing the passes, advertizing the passes, placing posts and signs at all the trail heads. Sounds a lot like a jobs program to me... How about WA take a fact finding mission to CO and see how they fund trailheads for free? Oh, wait that would mean not installing toilets and trash cans at every trailhead and making do with less state workers and less tax dollars. The three departments involved in the passes were running way under resourced prior to the recession and now have been asked to do the impossible without near adequate staffing or resources. The Discovery Pass is a reasoned response to simply shutting down and closing resources. It has nothing whatsoever to do with 'jobs' and especially nothing to do with signage or enforcement jobs - no one has been hired to do signage or enforcement - no, they've both just been heaped as added responsibilities on an already overworked staff. "Sounds a lot like" you filter everything through the narrow filter of you and your wallet without bothering to examine any of the facts involved. Just more of the sort of self-absorbed [republican] thinking that got us into this shitstorm to begin with. Yeah, hey, it worked out great for two wars, let's run unfunded parks and blame the staff for coming up with solutions to keep parks open - clearly a guberment makework conspiracy. One doesn't have to guess to hard you'd be bitching up a storm if they closed any of the three department's resources you use. Quote
CPOly Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Um, clogging up the courts with bogus cases. Mr. Ticket writer checking all the cars. All the extra trips to trailheads every day doing nothing productive. Printing the passes, advertizing the passes, placing posts and signs at all the trail heads. Sounds a lot like a jobs program to me... How about WA take a fact finding mission to CO and see how they fund trailheads for free? Oh, wait that would mean not installing toilets and trash cans at every trailhead and making do with less state workers and less tax dollars. I can't speak to your courts point, I don't know how parks is going to process "protesters". But Joseph was right on in saying that the expectation is that staff do more with less. Nobody was hired to hang signs or check for passes, and there are a lot of rangers that are not happy about becoming "meter maids". In the end you're really only hurting the park system as this is now their main source of funding. It's unfortunate that it came to this but it's the reality of the situation. Quote
mr.radon Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Volunteers do 95% of the work on these trails anyhow. I've done a bit of trail work, typically the park service is there to manage the volunteers not do the trail maintenance. So transfer more responsibility to the dedicated volunteers, lay off non-essential state staff. Heck I would sign up to haul the trash out of the Little Si trail head every other day. Or maybe ask a local to do it for a fraction of what it costs the state to send someone out there. Unlike a business the state has never lifted a finger to figure out how to do more with less, it has been all about protecting budgets. I've seen agencies spend money at the end of the year just to justify getting the same amount in their budget the next year. I looked at the pay scale posted earlier of the 600+ park workers, Rangers in WA make a good living wage, but they have like 5-6 support people for every ranger. Get real, the service has a bloated staff and budget. Add the time and $$$ they they now have to spend to equip, staff to enforce these fee systems, plus combat and prosecute the unaware neophytes and fee protesters... I bet if they stopped maintaining facilities at the trail heads things would not be any worse then they are now, they would certainly smell better getting rid of those toilets. Is it that hard to leave your trash in your pack or car till you can throw it away at home? NO... Is it that hard to pick up someone's trash, NO... Is it that bad to take a crap in the woods? NO... Once again the question remains, why can't WA figure out why other states with WAY more trails to maintain don't have a fee system? Quote
mr.radon Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 (edited) The Discovery Pass is a reasoned response to simply shutting down and closing resources. Typical response from an unimaginative Liberal Progressive. Give us money or we block access. Why block access other then to extort funds out of the tax payers. There is nothing wrong with leaving access open, just stop the service, EXCEPT for the Government. Once people see how little they received by these bloated agencies they might actually demand reform. Remove the trash cans, hang a sign on the toilets, bolt the doors shut. Done with it. No, the state government wants to make a statement. Don't pay more taxes or we'll CLOSE the trail. Typical 3 year old behavior. Mailbox Peak, prefect example. No trash can, no toilet and no fee. I have yet to notice wildcat crap nor trash at the trailhead. Green Mountain trailhead, same thing. Mount Bessemer, same thing. How about the Cable trailhead up Tiger? Same thing - no trash no wild cat crap no fee. Go to just about any CO 14'er trailhead you will be hard pressed to find a toilet or trash can. Never seen anything other then the occasional wrapper at the trail head. Edited July 17, 2011 by mr.radon Quote
num1mc Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 I noticed that the parking enforcement at Mt Si was being done by a DFW Wildlife Agent. I'm sure that DFW will start to tire of enforcement and the time parking enforcement takes away form their primary mandates. I do believe that DNR has specific LEO's who responsibilty differs from DFW, but these officers are few and far between, and also have other enforcement resonsibilities. Quote
stevetimetravlr Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Anytime they can write a ticket, they will not get tired of it. Its revenue. Quote
E-rock Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Hey, Radon dipshit. They take VIN numbers too, which are linked to your state registration. Good luck getting out of that one. Quote
mr.radon Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Hey, Radon dipshit. They take VIN numbers too, which are linked to your state registration. Good luck getting out of that one. After what they break the window? Right. Read the posts, many years no fine. Quote
mr.radon Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 E-Rock, in a state that doesn't even require SSN's to get driver's licenses you think they'll break a window to write a VIN number down? Daft I tell ya. Keep drinking the Liberal Taxaholic coolaid... And as bad as my sweaty seats smell, it'll take more then a cup of urine. Quote
JosephH Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Volunteers do 95% of the work on these trails anyhow. Wrong, at least at Beacon... So transfer more responsibility to the dedicated volunteers, lay off non-essential state staff. There is no 'non-essential state staff' in the WSP - they've been running understaffed relative to their responsibilities for a decade. Unlike a business the state has never lifted a finger to figure out how to do more with less, it has been all about protecting budgets. Wrong again. Beacon's ex-head ranger is now WSP finance head for SW Washington parks - figuring out how to do more with less is all they've been doing for a decade because less is all they've had. A complete bonehead assertion. I've seen agencies spend money at the end of the year just to justify getting the same amount in their budget the next year. I looked at the pay scale posted earlier of the 600+ park workers, Rangers in WA make a good living wage, but they have like 5-6 support people for every ranger. Get real, the service has a bloated staff and budget. An utter and complete fabrication - WSP do make a good living wage, but are carry both law enforcement and park management responsibilities and are not supported at anywhere near a 5-6 person ratio and instead have a fairly fanatical workload that would have you bitching non-stop. Another completely bonehead assertion. Is it that hard to leave your trash in your pack or car till you can throw it away at home? NO... Is it that hard to pick up someone's trash, NO... Is it that bad to take a crap in the woods? NO... But instead they have to deal with clueless idiots all day who trash the place and boneheads who try to dodge and poach all the fees. Bravo dude. Makes you wonder how they keep ahead of the relentless whiners and boneheads at all. Quote
campwire Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 If the money doesn't go to labor where does it go? Labor equals jobs, although not necessarily government jobs. That labor could be the labor to build, install or fabricate toilets, it could be to make, transport or grade gravel parking lots, administer user fees, write tickets, manage volunteers, or whatever. That labor paid or done by volunteers. Quote
E-rock Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Radon sniffer. You don't have to break a window to get a VIN. Duh. Keep on believing that you are above the law because of your political religion AND beyond its reach. I'm sure that's going to keep working out for you just fine. Quote
mr.radon Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Volunteers do 95% of the work on these trails anyhow. Wrong, at least at Beacon... So transfer more responsibility to the dedicated volunteers, lay off non-essential state staff. There is no 'non-essential state staff' in the WSP - they've been running understaffed relative to their responsibilities for a decade. What employment numbers are you referring to? Staff levels going back 16 years: 2009, 662 employees 2007, 675 employees 2005, 666 employees 2003, 640 employees 2001, 616 employees 1999, 504 employees 1997, 473 employees 1995, 559 employees A decade, you mean when they went on a hiring binge of 100 people? Cry me a river that some state worker actually has to fill in a second position as collateral duty, welcome to the real world. The WSP is still staffed at an ALL TIME high. They laid hardly anyone off during the recession one of the reasons they are in this fix, they keep hoping the tax base comes back, its not. The WSP does no trail maintenance at Si, I don't even think they empty trash and the crappers. No reason from this fee. Democracy, my right to protest, I'm a big boy, if they catch me I can handle the punishment. I've read the auditor's report, lots left wanting in this department. I don't mind paying entrance fees for National or State Parks, but trail head fees, are not justified. http://www.sao.wa.gov/auditreports/auditreportfiles/ar1000351.pdf Quote
mr.radon Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Radon sniffer. You don't have to break a window to get a VIN. Duh. Keep on believing that you are above the law because of your political religion AND beyond its reach. I'm sure that's going to keep working out for you just fine. You do if there is a map on top of it. Quote
CPOly Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 2009, 662 employees 2007, 675 employees So I didn't see the numbers for 2010 or 2011, but it looks to me like 2007 was the ALL TIME high. The end of the biennium this year saw over 20 parks employees laid off, and that's only field staff, not including support staff. They laid hardly anyone off during the recession one of the reasons they are in this fix, they keep hoping the tax base comes back, its not. The reason there was "hardly anyone" laid off was because they were able to make the necessary savings through not filling the positions of those recently retired and not filling/abolishing already vacant positions. I can assure there were still some that were laid off. And they don't keep hoping that the tax base comes back. After the $20 million this biennium to wean Parks off of general fund dollars, they will receive no more tax revenue. Their main source of money will be from the Discovery Pass. The WSP does no trail maintenance at Si, I don't even think they empty trash and the crappers. Mt. Si belongs to the Department of Natural Resources, not Washington State Parks, that's why you don't see them providing services at Mt. Si. Quote
JosephH Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 What employment numbers are you referring to? Staff levels going back 16 years: 2009, 662 employees 2007, 675 employees 2005, 666 employees 2003, 640 employees 2001, 616 employees 1999, 504 employees 1997, 473 employees 1995, 559 employees And they've been running understaffed that entire time. They run three times as many parks as Colorado with these stats: Wash: 120 Parks / 662 FTE / 500 Temp / 300,000 Volunteer Hours / 46 million annual visitors Colo: 42 Parks / 290 FTE / 742 Temp / 154.1 million Volunteer Hours / 11 million annual visitors So, even if you hired WSP staff to achieve similar volunteer hours, the WSP FTE staff (1162 / 120 = 9.7 per park) is spread far thinner by a long shot than their Colorado brethren (1042 / 42 = 24.6 per park). Colorado has close to three times the headcount per park. WSP staff also provide services to four times the number of visitors than do CSP staff. Plus, the Discovery Pass now accounts for the majority of the WSP operating budget versus a fraction of WDFW and DNR. In that regard, you by poaching, aren't a classic dirtbag no matter how hard you try to adopt that persona, instead you're just another low life leaching off the state and might as well be illegally collecting foodstamps and other forms of state aid. Quote
E-rock Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 You do if there is a map on top of it. Riiiiight Quote
mtn_mouse Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 Hey, Radon dipshit. They take VIN numbers too, which are linked to your state registration. Good luck getting out of that one. After what they break the window? Right. Read the posts, many years no fine. are you for real doood? all they have to do is run a registration check before writing the ticket. by radio. right here right now. wham, you don't match up, and impound on the way. probably use your illegal car for their own needs. Quote
Fairweather Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 Plus, the Discovery Pass now accounts for the majority of the WSP operating budget... Do you have the numbers on this? It's shocking, if true. And if it is, how can we users ensure that the remaining core budget isn't eviscerated in lieu of Olympia's new-found ransom? As I said here earlier, I believe that Parks and EMS are convenient bludgeons that state, county, and municipal governments use to punish recalcitrant taxpayers who dare to question the status quo in Olympia and elsewhere. Quote
mattp Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 Fairaweather: Do the State agencies seek to punish the taxpayers? Really? Or is it more the case that the voters seek to punish the State agencies? (And could it be that you, one of those voters, wants your preferred program or programs spared from the axe?) Quote
Fairweather Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 Again, park users have already shown a willingness to pay via the $5 voluntary surcharge affixed to annual car registration ($23 million/yr). Also, in the case of local parks, ballot propositions regularly pass throughout the state. I'll say it once again: park users seem to be falling victim to their own good deeds and intentions. This fee system will continue to work--for those who can afford it. But just accepting this with a smile would simply be asking for more. We are, IMO, obligated to give push-back and advocate for what we believe is the general good. If a few here want to practice some very minor (and somewhat childish) civil disobedience toward this end, then let 'em have at it. Quote
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