ivan Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 poverty and hardtimes are the ancient engines that spurred the greek people to colonizing the med and generally getting alltogether the fuck out of greece doesn't sound like much has changed over the past 3000 years? maybe they should take out another mortgage on the parthanon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I don't know enough financial history to know if the financial crises are actually more frequent and severe now than they were in, say the 19th century. They are certainly more frequent than in the post-Depression era preceding the global financial liberalization and deregulation! I'd be willing to bet that the main feature that distinguishes now from then is the willingness/ability of sovereign states to bail out private creditors/enterprises who made bad investments. Funny how that happens when those factions capture state power... It's really not the "Welfare State" per se that is the problem with Greece. Sweden and Denmark, for example, seem to be able to run a welfare state without it going bust in the immediate future. Greece is one of many nations that can't. No nation that consistently consumes more real wealth than it produces can. Are you ever going to address the tax-evasion that everyone but you seems willing to recognize is part of the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Are you ever going to address the tax-evasion that everyone but you seems willing to recognize is part of the problem? Tax evasion or tax avoidance? They are two very different animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Debtocracy makes a compelling case that the entire euro system was rotten from the start, with bankers in Frankfurt and Paris left with piles of surplus cash, and southern Europeans getting by on cheap loans. [video:youtube]qKpxPo-lInk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 Are you talking frequency, magnitude, or both? Rich countries or all countries? If you have the time, link to a comprehensive summary-timeline and we can take a look. It's hard to disentangle the tax-evasion issue from cultural issues. One of the reasons that the Nordic folks can live with high taxes is that they have a relatively high degree of confidence that the money they hand over will be used effectively and efficiently. One theme that comes up again and again with Greeks is that they don't want to pay taxes because they are convinced - with good reason - that they will be essentially stolen and squandered. Not an easy thing to fix. Also one of the reasons why "progressives" who like high tax rates should be more strident advocates for cost-efficiency in the delivery of public services than anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Are you talking frequency, magnitude, or both? Rich countries or all countries? If you have the time, link to a comprehensive summary-timeline and we can take a look. which implies you haven't taken a look yet despite the role of tax havens being prominently discussed by at least half the political spectrum in the US and the entire political spectrum abroad. One wonders how you get at your conclusions ... cherry picking anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 "Funny how that happens when those factions capture state power..." I trust that you are not "Shocked...shocked" by the above. I can see how the above quote would support an argument for limiting the state's power, but struggle to see how that would work with the opposite argument. That's one more thing that goes back thousands of years. As long as the state has had the power to influence the distribution of rewards in society and divert the gains from commerce on behalf of the favored - that's what has tended to happen. There are literally clay tablets associated with feuds over who got their hands on the frankincense franchise, etc. When there's a gajillion dollars at stake from using the government to rig the game on your behalf of course the interests with the most to gain will pursue that pile of cash, and of course the most powerful monkeys will get their hands on the big bananna. There's libraries full of dense tracts on political economy around the world and throughout history that testify to this fact. How about getting rid of some of the levers the big monkeys are most likely to reach for - like tariffs, subsidies, tax exemptions, etc? A flat tax is a long shot, but I'm not sure it's more utopian than assuming that you can leave those levers in place, much less multiply them and make them bigger, and not have lots more monkey-hands grabbing for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Also one of the reasons why "progressives" who like high tax rates should be more strident advocates for cost-efficiency in the delivery of public services than anyone else. that's because you reduce "efficiency" to paying non-living wages, which is not efficient at all since paying employees a fair wage is sine qua non to the quality and delivery of services. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 that's because you reduce "efficiency" to paying non-living wages, Define a "living wage", quantitatively for say, a family of 4 in the metro Seattle area in 2011 dollars. Then define how you would achieve such a wage for all while preserving a balanced budget and sound economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 that's because you reduce "efficiency" to paying non-living wages, Define a "living wage", quantitatively for say, a family of 4 in the metro Seattle area in 2011 dollars. Then define how you would achieve such a wage for all while preserving a balanced budget and sound economy. By taking money from the rich, duh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 By taking money from the rich, duh. In the case of Greece 200 will suffice. We should do a remake movie of 300 as a documentary. LOLZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I don't know enough financial history to know if the financial crises are actually more frequent and severe now than they were in, say the 19th century. They are certainly more frequent than in the post-Depression era preceding the global financial liberalization and deregulation! more frequent now? uh...hell no - here's wikipedia's list: Panic of 1796–1797 Panic of 1819 Panic of 1825 Panic of 1826 Panic of 1837 Panic of 1857 Panic of 1866 Panic of 1873 Panic of 1884 Panic of 1890 Panic of 1893 Panic of 1896 pretty shocking regularity of course - looks like the typical 40 year old then would have lived through more than a half dozen in his time, whereas i only recall 2 in my own (the savings and loan bullshit of the late eighties and the recent shitstorm - am i missign somethign?) more severe? harder to judge or measure as times are different and the whole "fighting forest fires makes the eventual forest fire you can't stop a true disaster" idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 It's too bad the Greeks can't make money off their body hair and BO. Maybe they can sell their gold chains? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 It's too bad the Greeks can't make money off their body hair and BO. What do you think flavors feta, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 more frequent now? uh...hell no - here's wikipedia's list: Panic of 1796–1797 Panic of 1819 Panic of 1825 Panic of 1826 Panic of 1837 Panic of 1857 Panic of 1866 Panic of 1873 Panic of 1884 Panic of 1890 Panic of 1893 Panic of 1896 pretty shocking regularity of course - looks like the typical 40 year old then would have lived through more than a half dozen in his time, whereas i only recall 2 in my own (the savings and loan bullshit of the late eighties and the recent shitstorm - am i missign somethign?) the 19th century through the 29 crash was the age of unregulated capitalism like today. Financial regulations were put in place to prevent boom-bust cycles of speculation, which was successful until these same regulations were dismantled by the new age robber barons. yes, you are missing the dotcom bubble crash in 2001. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) Define a "living wage", quantitatively for say, a family of 4 in the metro Seattle area in 2011 dollars. Then define how you would achieve such a wage for all while preserving a balanced budget and sound economy. I'd consider it if you actually made an argument (one that justified a reply). Edited June 16, 2011 by j_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Define a "living wage", quantitatively for say, a family of 4 in the metro Seattle area in 2011 dollars. Then define how you would achieve such a wage for all while preserving a balanced budget and sound economy. I'd consider it if you actually made an argument (one that justified a reply). In other words, "hand waving" only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 No. I have already explained why many don't make ends meet. The only hand waving here is yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 No. I have already explained why many don't make ends meet. The only hand waving here is yours. Define a living wage - esp. one that can actually be supported by the economy. You can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 This thread is really boring. Can we please step up the ad hom attacks, donkey fuckers? Who the fuck cares about the greek, anyway. They have smelly poos and their civilization has collapsed before anyway, lots of times. They'll just roll with the punches -- poor people are good at surviving. That's why they never go away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 you should care because we are dealing with similar issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 you should care because we are dealing with similar issues. Smelly poos? BO? Body hair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 you should care because we are dealing with similar issues. Smelly poos? BO? Body hair? All problems that j_bot is suffering from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) Smelly poos? BO? Body hair? well, in your case there is strong evidence for one of them Edited June 16, 2011 by j_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 This thread is really boring. Can we please step up the ad hom attacks, donkey fuckers? Who the fuck cares about the greek, anyway. They have smelly poos and their civilization has collapsed before anyway, lots of times. They'll just roll with the punches -- poor people are good at surviving. That's why they never go away. We should tell them that Mr. Weiner sent pics of his weener to their hottest women, causing them to run away from their smelly husbands. They can launch a thousand ships to invade us, which we can sink with our trillion dollar fighters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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