Greeks Bearing Gifts....

[prole]

You're a real gem.

[prole]

I would think free-marketeers would be the biggest advocates for education given the burden they place on individuals for knowing absolutely everything before they can come to a rational decision about anything.

[j_b]

 

source: Gorgetown University center on education and the workforce

Edited June 23, 2011 by j_b

[j_b]

[j_b]

"In the postindustrial economy, educational attainment, especially postsecondary educational attainment, has replaced the industrial concept of class as the primary marker for social stratification. In particular, in the post–World War II era, access to postsecondary education has become the salient mechanism driving access to middle-class earnings and status."

http://tcf.org/publications/2010/9/how-increasing-college-access-is-increasing-inequality-and-what-to-do-about-it/pdf

 

I can't believe I am doing this but it appears that neolib propaganda has a greater impact than I assumed.

Edited June 23, 2011 by j_b

[JosephH]

The gist of a talk given in 1993 or so at Lewis and Clark College by MIT economist Lester Thurow.

 

Globalization means that if you have the skills of a Quatemalan day laborer then you'll be

paid like one and it doesn't matter if you happen to live in Brooklyn.

...

The only thing that matters is your skills.

...

The problem though, is we have 15,000 individual school districts in this country, all

cranking out a lousy product.

...

Without national education standards our influence as a nation and the opportunities for our people

will continue to decline.

Also, be aware that what was done in this country to mortgage, auto, credit card, and student

loan debt was also done to the loans to countries like Greece - they were immediately sliced-&-diced

and repackaged multiple times to obfuscate them, fraudulently rated, and then sold in unregulated

markets. No one really knows who's holding the bag if Greece defaults and that's a big part of

the problem. It's really fundamentally no different a scam than was run here so visibly on mortgages

and student loans.

[j_b]

State funding for higher ed has been cut in half since 2008

the debt bubble burst and plunging real estate values signal the end of borrowing for the middle class

student debt is greater than credit card debt, etc

 

but, "a crisis, where? .... whining ... I am a liberal but no one is putting a gun to people's heads to take out loans"

 

I couldn't make this shit up if I tried! Unreal!

 

[Jim]

Is there ever a thread where the interjectin of "..the world is on fire" doesn't apply for you?

 

Jeesh. Yea, times are tough, they have been before, and somehow we'll muddle through. Yea, it is a real drag that college costs are going up at the current rate and yes that does mean more costs for kids. My point was that if you want to go to college and don't have the cash you can figure out ways and taking out monster loans isn't the only solution. Maybe that means postponing education for a year to work to pull in some cash - maybe it means taking a more critical review of the cost/benefit ratio of an English degree.

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Is there ever a thread where the interjectin of "..the world is on fire" doesn't apply for you?

 

Amen.

 

Jeesh. Yea, times are tough, they have been before, and somehow we'll muddle through. Yea, it is a real drag that college costs are going up at the current rate and yes that does mean more costs for kids.

 

Or their parents. It's not like people on this very thread will not be taking out 6 figure loans to pay for their kids' educations.

 

My point was that if you want to go to college and don't have the cash you can figure out ways and taking out monster loans isn't the only solution. Maybe that means postponing education for a year to work to pull in some cash - maybe it means taking a more critical review of the cost/benefit ratio of an English degree.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jim]

And I should add that I have some biasis based on my own experiences, as do most folks. I come from a large family where my folks simply could not afford college - so patching together some scholarships, grants, and working part-time during the school year and two jobs every summer loading trucks kept me solvent. While grad school meant more academic-type work during the school year I also cleaned carpets for cash when time allowed.

 

The biggest disappointment for me regarding education funding is the squeezing of very useful grant programs such as the Pell Grants, which can provide a boost to able students with financial challenges.

 

My daughter is finishing up college and we had the early talk about what were my expected contributions to her education and what were her responsibilities. Nothing like some clarity to help your kid along.

 

 

[j_b]

Is there ever a thread where the interjectin of "..the world is on fire" doesn't apply for you?

 

Jeesh. Yea, times are tough, they have been before, and somehow we'll muddle through.

 

sorry to harsh your mellow dood but the world is on fire. Between the severe environmental crises occurring as we speak, the systematic marching back of 70 years of social progress (what's left of it after 30 years of neoliberal rule), neoliberal globalization driving earnings into the sewer and destroying the middle class, the systematic looting of treasury, etc it is a perfect storm of crises. In fact it is difficult not to think they are related.

 

Yea, it is a real drag that college costs are going up at the current rate and yes that does mean more costs for kids. My point was that if you want to go to college and don't have the cash you can figure out ways and taking out monster loans isn't the only solution. Maybe that means postponing education for a year to work to pull in some cash - maybe it means taking a more critical review of the cost/benefit ratio of an English degree.

 

so they are going to save for college on non-living wages? nice fairy tale. People went into debt because that was the only to pay for an education that would give them a chance to improve their lot. Unless your behavior reflects the world being on fire, the good jobs aren't coming back, unemployment will stay high because it insures the peons fight for the scraps and profits are optimized, etc

Edited June 23, 2011 by j_b

[Jim]

It's not a matter of messing my mellow - it's just dealing with reality. It is what it is and while working for what you beleive is, IMO, a requirement (as opposed to inssesant arm waving on the internet)present conditions aren't a reason to lay down and die.

 

Postponing college to work a bit and save some cash to keep down the debt load is not a bad strategy. Would I prefer that the cash we're throwing down the toilet overseas be funneled into education - who wouldn't.

 

...but the world is on fire.

Maybe, just maybe, you could once offer some practical solution to the one of these many crises..The chicken little act gets old.

[j_b]

Yes it is definitely a matter of harshing your mellow because YOUR reality isn't that of most people.

[j_b]

...but the world is on fire.

Maybe, just maybe, you could once offer some practical solution to the one of these many crises..The chicken little act gets old.

 

get used to it because these crises aren't going away despite your and your friends pretending they don't exist.

[j_b]

there isn't a week passing without some scientific body warning us of impending doom but Jim doesn't think the world is on fire. I mean we could understand how from his comfortable position he doesn't perceive the economic hardship suffered by most but is anything wrong with that picture?

[Jim]

I thought I'd step in and keep you from a quaruple post. But please carry on with your insightful comments.

[j_b]

what else is wrong with my person or my posting habits, Jim?

[j_b]

And I should add that I have some biasis based on my own experiences, as do most folks. I come from a large family where my folks simply could not afford college - so patching together some scholarships, grants, and working part-time during the school year and two jobs every summer loading trucks kept me solvent. While grad school meant more academic-type work during the school year I also cleaned carpets for cash when time allowed.

 

most working students I ever had couldn't handle working any significant amount and really go to school

[Jim]

Then they are weaklings.

[prole]

 

How does one square this statement:

 

Jeesh. Yea, times are tough, they have been before, and somehow we'll muddle through. Yea, it is a real drag that college costs are going up at the current rate and yes that does mean more costs for kids. My point was that if you want to go to college and don't have the cash you can figure out ways and taking out monster loans isn't the only solution. Maybe that means postponing education for a year to work to pull in some cash - maybe it means taking a more critical review of the cost/benefit ratio of an English degree.

 

...with this one:

 

we have both more wealth and more tools to deal with whatever problems we have than we've ever had before.

[j_b]

Then they are weaklings.

 

that's the kind of statement I'd expect from Attila but it is true you seem to have more in common than one would think possible.

 

 

[Jim]

How does one square this statement:

 

Jeesh. Yea, times are tough, they have been before, and somehow we'll muddle through. Yea, it is a real drag that college costs are going up at the current rate and yes that does mean more costs for kids. My point was that if you want to go to college and don't have the cash you can figure out ways and taking out monster loans isn't the only solution. Maybe that means postponing education for a year to work to pull in some cash - maybe it means taking a more critical review of the cost/benefit ratio of an English degree.

 

...with this one:

 

we have both more wealth and more tools to deal with whatever problems we have than we've ever had before.

 

 

If you're asking me - I'd say they don't agree. Clearly the middle class -whatever that is - is in a squeeze. While cost have been going down, in real terms, for many durable items - cars, toasters, fridges, and such - costs for important life elements - housing, education, and especially basic medical care are going up in inverse proportion to real wages. No doubt about it. And I generally agree with your assessment of this.

 

What I object to is the notion that somehow this ranks up there with the the dark ages. We should be working for changing the dominant paradigm (sorry - couldn't help it)while marshalling what ever resources needed to get to where you want to go. What is the immediate alternative - arm waving and giving up according to some I suppose.

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

What I object to is the notion that somehow this ranks up there with the the dark ages. We should be working for changing the dominant paradigm (sorry - couldn't help it)while marshalling what ever resources needed to get to where you want to go. What is the immediate alternative - arm waving and giving up according to some I suppose.

 

 

j-bot offers nothing but arm-waving. You can try to twist that arm all you want to give a "solution", but past experience has shown that what he has to offer is nothing but a denial of reality (e.g. the whole question about addressing state-deficits when tax-increases have been rejected repeatedly by the voter), and a refusal to consider any alternative that involves any kind of sacrifice, whether it be a budget cut, or personal lifestyle change (cue up the "austerity narrative" in 3...2...1).

 

Having some kids wait a few years working is not a bad idea. Considering the propensity for a good number of freshman to guzzle beer and hit the clubs, I'm not sure I buy the idea that money and time is really as dear a resource to quite a few as is claimed. Working part time is an option as well - cut course load/units from 16 to 12, work part time and take 5 years instead of 4. Doesn't seem that bad an idea.

 

[j_b]

lying comes to Attila as easily as breathing. I have offered plenty of solutions, in particular the People's Budget put forward by the progressive caucus but entirely ignored by the corporate media, which is no accident.

[j_b]

What I object to is the notion that somehow this ranks up there with the the dark ages.

 

well, most indicators tell us a story similar to that of the great depression, but added on top of it we have undergone neoliberal reorganization while America doesn't have the markets that Asia provides, a democracy captured by corporocrats, severe environmental crises, perpetual war, and a complacent public in NA.