The invisible hand has been spanking some costs

[JayB]

just skimmed what you wrote as i have to take off, but it sounds like we are, in part, agreeing. however, maybe i just misread what you wrote. the two are apples and oranges.

 

 

getting back to my original joke: get rid of medical insurance all together! if you don't have the money for a liver transplant you should probably die. there are slight ethical problems with this, thats why I call it a joke. Is it a joke to you?

 

You can have insurance without abolishing price transparency, competition, and incentives to spend as little as necessary.

 

They persist in pretty much every insurance market except for health insurance.

 

[JayB]

Um...non profits dont set prices that lose money any more than for profits do. They just dont jack them up to maximize profits at the expenses of the public good like for profits do. Single payer would negotiate prices with competing non profits.

 

Yes, sophistry, bait and switch, and misrepresenting your source material are all coommon jayb lying tactics. Right out of thr GOP playbook.

 

Except in this case - the prices at the rapacious and boundlessly greedy and selfish for-profit clinics that are dropping, and the prices at the non-profits that are steadily increasing.

 

Speaking of which - anyone remember McAllen and El Paso?

 

"“In contrast to the Medicare population, the use of and spending per capita for medical services by privately insured populations in McAllen and El Paso was much less divergent, with some exceptions,” the article’s abstract states.

 

“For example, although spending per Medicare member per year was 86 percent higher in McAllen than in El Paso, total spending per member per year in McAllen was 7 percent lower than in El Paso for the population insured by Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Texas. We consider possible explanations but conclude that health care providers respond quite differently to incentives in Medicare compared to those in private insurance programs.”

 

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/29/12/2302.abstract

 

Yeah, I remember the New Yorker article about McCallen (highest per capita health care costs in the country). It flamed private health insurers and providers, and sung the statistical praises of well run non-profits, most notably Kaiser Permanente, as models for how we might move forward.

 

Prices are coming down amongst private health insurers? REALLY?

 

You are not a skilled liar, but you are a prolific one.

 

Glad you can remember what you read a year ago. Can you still read?

 

"Medicare spending for the elderly is much higher in McAllen, Texas, than in El Paso, Texas, as reported in a 2009 New Yorker article by Atul Gawande. To investigate whether this disparity was present in the non-Medicare populations of those two cities, we obtained medical use and expense data for patients privately insured by Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Texas. In contrast to the Medicare population, the use of and spending per capita for medical services by privately insured populations in McAllen and El Paso was much less divergent, with some exceptions. For example, although spending per Medicare member per year was 86 percent higher in McAllen than in El Paso, total spending per member per year in McAllen was 7 percent lower than in El Paso for the population insured by Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Texas. We consider possible explanations but conclude that health care providers respond quite differently to incentives in Medicare compared to those in private insurance programs."

[tvashtarkatena]

just skimmed what you wrote as i have to take off, but it sounds like we are, in part, agreeing. however, maybe i just misread what you wrote. the two are apples and oranges.

 

 

getting back to my original joke: get rid of medical insurance all together! if you don't have the money for a liver transplant you should probably die. there are slight ethical problems with this, thats why I call it a joke. Is it a joke to you?

 

You can have insurance without abolishing price transparency, competition, and incentives to spend as little as necessary.

 

They persist in pretty much every insurance market except for health insurance.

 

Wow. You lie like most people breath.

 

I just shopped for and purchased health insurance a few months ago. It takes about half an hour to have pricing for 3 competing non-profit plans laid out in front of you. EZ PEZY.

 

In contrast, the for profit plans I looked at (not seriously...I wouldn't go there) were large binder clusterfucks of disconnected brochures and fine print. The one I was able to tease the prices out of was significantly more expensive, covered way less, was full of no-service loopholes, and left me far more exposed in case of catastrophe. It had hidden fees all over the place. There was no comparable price comparison service possible or available. Furthermore, one simply needs to type to google the name of these for profits and 'complaint' to instantly learn how many law suits are pending against them for their misleading sales practices, illegally dropping patients or not honoring the policies, etc.

 

So what's this about the greater transparency of for profit health care, you fucking liar?

 

[prole]

So what's this about the greater transparency of for profit health care, you fucking liar?

 

Duuude, it's Jay_B, man. It's all theoretical.

[prole]

"First, assume we have a can-opener."

[tvashtarkatena]

Yeah, theoretically, I want a health care organization with the objective of providing the best health care, not maximizing the shareholder value of a bunch of investors who couldn't give less of a shit about that. Or paying for the House in the Hamptons of the company's executive suite.

 

Of course, you NEED those two components - shareholder and executive greed and skimming, to achieve EXCELLENCE OF CARE. Pay no attention to actual comparisons between for profit and non-profit health care providers.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Not to mention the...uh, lobbying that goes on...all to improve the EXCELLENCE OF CARE, of course.

 

You wouldn't want to buy cheap drugs from India or Canada, for example. That would NOT BE EXCELLENT.

[tvashtarkatena]

In a non-profit, single payer world we'd HAVE NO CHOICE, cuz non-profits CAN'T COMPETE WITH ONE ANOTHER. Prices would be SET LIKE IN THE SOVIET UNION.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Because the free market insurance industry is fucked?

 

You know, the invisible handjob?

 

Did you read the part about procedures not covered by insurance being mostly OPTIONAL? Its like comparing buying a new Lexus to getting a life saving kidney transplant. Apples and oranges.

 

Um...cosmetic procedures are getting cheaper because demand for them has plummeted due to the crash. This trend has received a ton of press, hell, there's even a cable show that addresses it.

 

Nice attempt to twist the logic around, Jay, but you're just fucking lying again, as usual.

Edited December 9, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

It's actually amazing to me how instantly transparent Jay's bullshit is. The debunking usually takes all of a nanosecond, despite lack of editing prowess.

[prole]

These are desperate times. Never has so much been at stake for so few.

[tvashtarkatena]

Jay's message is that of the typical asset stripper: without the profit motive, mediocrity is the result.

 

The profit motive can and often does turn an organization into a parasite. Profit oriented corporations have proven themselves willing and able to destroy communities, cultures, and an entire planet to squeeze out another good quarter. They are a potent, amoral, destructive force by definition.

 

Anecdotally, the absolute best people I've ever worked with; in terms of talent, brains, motivation, effectiveness, integrity, and lack of personal dysfunction, have been employees of non-profits. The average quality and integrity of for profit corporate worker is...yeah...not that impressive.

 

So, the Rfuck schtick denigrating any organization that isn't parasitically preying on the rest of us to concentrate wealth in their bucket doesn't really fly when held up to any scrutiny at all.

 

Pretty much consistent with the rest of their childish bullshit.

Edited December 10, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[JayB]

just skimmed what you wrote as i have to take off, but it sounds like we are, in part, agreeing. however, maybe i just misread what you wrote. the two are apples and oranges.

 

 

getting back to my original joke: get rid of medical insurance all together! if you don't have the money for a liver transplant you should probably die. there are slight ethical problems with this, thats why I call it a joke. Is it a joke to you?

 

You can have insurance without abolishing price transparency, competition, and incentives to spend as little as necessary.

 

They persist in pretty much every insurance market except for health insurance.

 

Wow. You lie like most people breath.

 

I just shopped for and purchased health insurance a few months ago. It takes about half an hour to have pricing for 3 competing non-profit plans laid out in front of you. EZ PEZY.

 

In contrast, the for profit plans I looked at (not seriously...I wouldn't go there) were large binder clusterfucks of disconnected brochures and fine print. The one I was able to tease the prices out of was significantly more expensive, covered way less, was full of no-service loopholes, and left me far more exposed in case of catastrophe. It had hidden fees all over the place. There was no comparable price comparison service possible or available. Furthermore, one simply needs to type to google the name of these for profits and 'complaint' to instantly learn how many law suits are pending against them for their misleading sales practices, illegally dropping patients or not honoring the policies, etc.

 

So what's this about the greater transparency of for profit health care, you fucking liar?

 

That's all very interesting - but there's a difference between the subset of elective procedures that's not covered by insurance, and health insurance policies that cover virtually every non-elective procedure.

 

I was arguing that the combination of price transparency, competition, and consumer-incentives at play in LASIK and cosmetic medicine was responsible for the price reductions that are clearly evident in Peter's chart - and the absence of any of these three factors was one of the reasons that the price of procedures covered by insurance has been going in the other direction.

 

As an aside, it's entirely possible for profits to go up, while prices go down. I have yet to meet anyone who shops on the basis of which seller is making the least money for good or service A, as opposed to who has the best price. "Sure you're just as good as the other surgeon, but you'll make net $1000 on a $2000 procedure because you've got a more efficient cost structure, do more volume, and have more modern equipment - to hell with that. I'm going with the guy who charges $3000 because I *know* he'll barely break even...."

[JayB]

"The profit motive can and often does turn an organization into a parasite. Profit oriented corporations have proven themselves willing and able to destroy communities, cultures, and an entire planet to squeeze out another good quarter. They are a potent, amoral, destructive force by definition"

 

 

Yes -one look at how all of the above fared behind the Iron Curtain, in modern day China, etc, etc, - or the history of government vs private, for-profit malfeasance pretty well validates all of the above claims.

 

 

[prole]

This would be a good time for Dr. Fairweather's Cabinet of Horrors?

[tvashtarkatena]

"The profit motive can and often does turn an organization into a parasite. Profit oriented corporations have proven themselves willing and able to destroy communities, cultures, and an entire planet to squeeze out another good quarter. They are a potent, amoral, destructive force by definition"

 

 

Yes -one look at how all of the above fared behind the Iron Curtain, in modern day China, etc, etc, - or the history of government vs private, for-profit malfeasance pretty well validates all of the above claims.

 

 

Modern day China, liar? Um...that's pretty much a wholesale FOR PROFIT venture.

 

The IRON CURTAIN? You're comparing the VA, Kaiser Permanente, and the health care sustems of the rest of the civilized world to the IRON CURTAIN? For real?

 

One thing that is always missing in your posts is sustainability. Never, ever shows up. Hence your support for the Green Revolution - and the most unsustainable (and heavily subsidized) agricultural practices in history that produced it. Goodbye topsoil, ocean health, fossil acquifers, public health, and local control of communities. HELLO PROFITS. Just one example of the what's missing in the asset stripping parasitism that is the modern, national/multinational corporation. Also, it seems that our wealth was ON CREDIT, no? Yeah...just a wee omission there.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for capitalism. Local capitalism, where there's actually a cause and effect relationship between what the company does and the communities affected by its actions.

 

Yours, however, is a short term worship of consumptive materialism ('wealth' according to your ilk), at the expense of the environment, culture, community, public health, egalitarianism, and social stability, of course.

 

Even in the face of planet wide environmental and economic collapse, the good liar stands by his guns. "Oh, just ignore the last 3 years of data..."

 

What we now enjoy is a society where everyone can buy cheap Chinese crap on credit, and everyone is afraid of losing their job, health care, privacy, education, and home. Great. We now have a culture so paranoid that its willing to jump on a fascist bandwagon, thanks in large part to the very same avarice and manipulation practiced by the corporate interests you so love.

 

By all means, however, keep comparing even the slightest corporate regulation to the Iron Curtain or, why not go the distance and go for North Korea? No, not a rhetorical trick at all.

 

When sustainability is considered, all of your arguments fail miserably and obviously. Funny how that works.

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[prole]

[video:youtube]

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

Anecdotally, the absolute best people I've ever worked with; in terms of talent, brains, motivation, effectiveness, integrity, and lack of personal dysfunction,...

 

How could YOU tell. Or is it just the mirror that lies?

[JayB]

"The profit motive can and often does turn an organization into a parasite. Profit oriented corporations have proven themselves willing and able to destroy communities, cultures, and an entire planet to squeeze out another good quarter. They are a potent, amoral, destructive force by definition"

 

 

Yes -one look at how all of the above fared behind the Iron Curtain, in modern day China, etc, etc, - or the history of government vs private, for-profit malfeasance pretty well validates all of the above claims.

 

 

Modern day China, liar? Um...that's pretty much a wholesale FOR PROFIT venture.

 

The IRON CURTAIN? You're comparing the VA, Kaiser Permanente, and the health care sustems of the rest of the civilized world to the IRON CURTAIN? For real?

 

One thing that is always missing in your posts is sustainability. Never, ever shows up. Hence your support for the Green Revolution - and the most unsustainable (and heavily subsidized) agricultural practices in history that produced it. Goodbye topsoil, ocean health, fossil acquifers, public health, and local control of communities. HELLO PROFITS. Just one example of the what's missing in the asset stripping parasitism that is the modern, national/multinational corporation. Also, it seems that our wealth was ON CREDIT, no? Yeah...just a wee omission there.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for capitalism. Local capitalism, where there's actually a cause and effect relationship between what the company does and the communities affected by its actions.

 

Yours, however, is a short term worship of consumptive materialism ('wealth' according to your ilk), at the expense of the environment, culture, community, public health, egalitarianism, and social stability, of course.

 

Even in the face of planet wide environmental and economic collapse, the good liar stands by his guns. "Oh, just ignore the last 3 years of data..."

 

What we now enjoy is a society where everyone can buy cheap Chinese crap on credit, and everyone is afraid of losing their job, health care, privacy, education, and home. Great. We now have a culture so paranoid that its willing to jump on a fascist bandwagon, thanks in large part to the very same avarice and manipulation practiced by the corporate interests you so love.

 

By all means, however, keep comparing even the slightest corporate regulation to the Iron Curtain or, why not go the distance and go for North Korea? No, not a rhetorical trick at all.

 

When sustainability is considered, all of your arguments fail miserably and obviously. Funny how that works.

 

 

 

Love the thread creep here. I just thought it might be instructive to compare the death toll from direct acts of violence conducted by sole proprietorships, partnerships, corporations, (restaurants, gas stations, organic llama farms, dental practices) to those conducted by governments over any interval in modern history.

 

Sounds like you're much more interested in the Green Revolution and sustainability though! Neat. Do carry on about the evils of the Green Revolution! If there's one thing we've seen throughout history - it's been that the lower crop yields per acre are, and the closer people are to death by starvation, the more concerned they are with things like their carbon footprint.

[j_b]

You go TVash! Right on! (I don't do cheer-leading too often around here but that was some dressing down). Don't let the fuckwits get to you

 

SO where are JayB's answers to your salient points besides the typical reptilian red-baiting? ZILCH, NADA, ZERO, .. JayB, king of the dodge, shall read his epitaph

Edited December 10, 2010 by j_b

[j_b]

Yes -one look at how all of the above fared behind the Iron Curtain, in modern day China, etc, etc, - or the history of government vs private, for-profit malfeasance pretty well validates all of the above claims.

 

Modern day China, liar? Um...that's pretty much a wholesale FOR PROFIT venture.

 

The IRON CURTAIN? You're comparing the VA, Kaiser Permanente, and the health care sustems of the rest of the civilized world to the IRON CURTAIN? For real?

 

Jay appears smart enough to know he is spewing drivel, which suggests he is pulling the red-baiting card like they all do when they run out of arguments

[JayB]

You go TVash! Right on! (I don't do cheer-leading too often around here but that was some dressing down). Don't let the fuckwits get to you

 

SO where are JayB's answers to your salient points besides the typical reptilian red-baiting? ZILCH, NADA, ZERO, .. JayB, king of the dodge, shall read his epitaph

 

Woah - looks like there was some late night editing going on up there in some of those posts. Neat.

 

The claim was that once you eliminate profits - you eliminate all of the human foibles that scourge hell-holes like, say, Switzerland and wind up with harmonious utopias like....Cuba. Banish profits and greed, lusting after power, etc disappear.

 

 

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

The profit motive needs to be removed from areas where it creates a basic conflict of interest. Health care, for basic humanitarian reasons, is one of those areas. Primary public oversight and control of such a critical social function should also be instituted through government. Right now we've got an inefficiency clusterfuck with costs running out of control even as profits do the same.

[Peter_Puget]

Many more people die each year from a shortage of organs than die in a decade because they lack financial means to pay for an organ transplant. A market for organs will significantly increase the supply and save more lives than making tansplants zero cost to the patient.

 

That said we live in a world of scarcity and despite our best intentions we cannot avoid that fact.

 

[Kimmo]

That said we live in a world of scarcity and despite our best intentions we cannot avoid that fact.

 

we live more so in a world of mis-allocation than scarcity.