beacon bolting question?

[stevetimetravlr]

Right on, Riverside looks great! I am pretty sure thats the climb Rick said was Diagonal, as it had a small roof that I saw that appears to be the same one in the photos. It is kind of confusing up there...

[JosephH]

 

The orange line is Riverside.

[stevetimetravlr]

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[stevetimetravlr]

Good photo, thank you.

[kevbone]

OMG.....LoLP is in that picture.

[JosephH]

Yes, the secret door to the Reptilian HQ has been exposed!!!

[stevetimetravlr]

Question for all Beacon climbers. My buddy Dave and I did a not often done route called Bluebird Direct, Dave led it. I think it is one of the best crack pitches I have done, and certainly has to be one of the top pitches at Beacon and it takes gear well. Its at least 70 feet or more of perfect splitter and stemming, starts narrow and goes to wide hands at the top. However, the approach to it is up one of the scary not easily protected pitches like Winter Delight to get to the anchors to start it. I spoke with Jim O. at length on the routes and he filled us in on the other routes beta, etc., and they are all scarefests now. Seems like these routes had to have pins placed back when they were led, and seems like there should be at least one approach pitch that is not a death pitch to approach Bluebird Direct, as if there was I think we would all be doing it on a regular basis, and the anchor up there is looking brand new(thank you Joseph). So how about a extra bolt or at the least a pin or two on the easist variation to get up there so guys like me who have a family and want to be around for a bit can climb it once in a while?

[kevbone]

The climb to the left of winter delight (which is poorly protected) is great and takes great gear (if you can find it). It is called sufficiently breathless. It goes about 10.a or so. Great start to Blue Bird.

[JosephH]

There are a lot of scarefests at Beacon. There was place-and-remove pin use back when lines out there were aided, but as free climbs they didn't use the technique and all those lines have gone free as they are. There is the odd case here and there a pin was taken, but Bluebird Direct is not one of them. To quote Olson:

 

5.10D®...Stem up a poorly protected dihedral to where it joins with the standard Bluebird route. A good climb, but a little runout.

I'm personally completely against retrobolting existing lines at Beacon for any reason, but particularly to make them 'safer'. Given my age, and with a daughter up at UW, I can certainly empathize with both being a family man and, in my case, being old, but that's the cycle of life and the choices we make for ourselves. Other folks are younger, single and either haven't made those choices yet, or chose differently, and are up for assuming more risk and challenges than you or I.

 

So there's just no good reason I can see for retrobolting to remove risks on existing lines for those of us who made choices we consider incompatible with the risks associated with some of them. Start down that slope and someone else comes along and want's things 'safer' than the next guy and pretty soon you've thrown open the door to with a lowest-common-denominator approach to retrobolting. From my perspective that sort of retrobolting is the antithesis of what Beacon is all about. It also wouldn't be in line with Opdycke's mantra of "keeping it real". That, and there are plenty of other great lines to climb out there which protect just fine.

 

[ Note: The pins out at Beacon way outperformed the bolts of the same eras and are every bit as solid as them, so it's not like a pin out there represents a 'lesser' or less secure form of fixed pro by any means. ]

 

 

[stevetimetravlr]

What total bullshit that a pin outperforms bolts and are every bit as solid. I have pulled pins out of the rock with my fingers. Frost wedging and other factors has its effects on pins, which have a very much shorter lifespan then bolts in general.

yeah, there are allot of scarefests at Beacon and they rarely if at all get done. I am not talking about retro bolting lines, I am simply suggesting that there be one line that reaches the start of Bluebird Direct that not be a death line. Winter Delight is not really safe or reasonable, nor do any of the other lines that lead to the anchors appear to be. Kev, we did look at Sufficiently Breathless and Aging Fags and they didn't look like they took any more gear then Winter Delight which is protected(ha!) by micro brassies and if Dave would have fallen, I don't think they would have held much. The bolt on Aging Fags is a ancient pinhead. If Sufficiently Breathless does protect somewhat, then I'll give it a whirl, as Bluebird Direct is stellar. But I know for a fact that many of these lines used pins on them when they were lead, and I also know that you pulled many of the pins yourself Joseph without climbing the pitches. So in that respect you have devalued your opinion, destroyed the original route pro, and in the process opened up the option of new pins and/or bolts for future consideration where there currently are no options for gear for long stretches.

Also Joseph, I never suggested placing pins or bolts on Bluebird Direct. It may be rated R(but i don't think so with small cams and stoppers) but it takes suffcient gear and is a clean fall, and absolutely stellar. I am talking about any approach pitch to the base of it of which Winter Delight, Aging Fags, etc. are rated X.

I will check out Sufficiently Breathless.

[denalidave]

Steve, I've taken enough falls on Sufficiently Breathless to assure you it does take good gear. However, the tricky gear is right off the ground, but even there, you can get in some small nuts, as well as small/micro cams. I'd say it is sustained 10a (IMO).

[JosephH]

What total bullshit that a pin outperforms bolts and are every bit as solid. I have pulled pins out of the rock with my fingers. Frost wedging and other factors has its effects on pins, which have a very much shorter lifespan then bolts in general.

Maybe elsewhere, and particularly in granite, but not out at Beacon. In 2007 I checked the soundness of all the pins across the South Face on every route and either found them sound, reset them if loose, or replaced them if corroded (with John Middendorf's spare pin rack bought for the purpose). This came on the heels of replacing 68 anchor sets. In 54 of the 68 anchor sets both bolts were bad or spinners; a whopping 85% were bad. By contrast, only about 25% of the pins required any maintenance and most all of those were way older than the bad bolts. So, as I said, at Beacon, the pins have vastly outperformed the bolts. When you clip an old pin out at Beacon on any of the trade routes you can bet they are likely way more bomb than any of the old protection bolts on those same routes.

 

yeah, there are allot of scarefests at Beacon and they rarely if at all get done. I am not talking about retro bolting lines, I am simply suggesting that there be one line that reaches the start of Bluebird Direct that not be a death line.

That would require retrobolting one of the lines that are there.

 

Winter Delight is not really safe or reasonable, nor do any of the other lines that lead to the anchors appear to be.

That would be one person's opinion. It's not one I share, nor do many others.

 

Kev, we did look at Sufficiently Breathless and Aging Fags and they didn't look like they took any more gear then Winter Delight which is protected(ha!) by micro brassies. The bolt on Aging Fags is a ancient pinhead. If Sufficiently Breathless does protect somewhat, then I'll give it a whirl, as Bluebird Direct is stellar.

The split-shank, buttonhead bolts used at Beacon are way, way burlier than any modern bolt ever sunk, the one I did try to remove burned two new Lennox Sawzall blades without so much as a nick and either of those blades would have gone through 20 5-pc bolts like butter. The only question with those old buttonheads is the condition of the hangers.

 

Sufficiently Breathless 5.10A / Superb route with excellent protection. ...

But I know for a fact that many of these lines used pins on them when they were lead, and I also know that you pulled many of the pins yourself Joseph without climbing the pitches.

No you don't know any such facts. Ask Olson, Wallace, Cartier, Nakahira, Yoder, Stiefel, Lyford, Sowerby, pink or any of the others if they were using pins on their many free ascents of any line of your choice - they weren't - they free climbed them with exactly what's there today. And anyone who claims I pulled a necessary pin on any line - let alone a line I haven't climbed - is flat out a liar, period. I removed three - count'em - three small, worthless angles which wouldn't hold falls and were in obvious placements that each take solid pro (and none of the three were on any of the lines you're talking about). In fact, the reality is just the opposite, I replaced about a half-dozen pins that Opdycke said had been pulled and stolen in the intervening years. There is no other story, and anyone who claims there is has no idea what they're talking about and never talked with me about what was done or not done.

 

So in that respect you have devalued your opinion, destroyed the original route pro, and in the process opened up the option of new pins and/or bolts for future consideration where there currently are no options for gear for long stretches.

All facets of this statement are patently false in every respect.

 

Also Joseph, I never suggested placing pins or bolts on Bluebird Direct. It may be rated R(but i don't think so with small cams and stoppers) but it takes suffcient gear and is a clean fall, and absolutely stellar. I am talking about any approach pitch to the base of it of which Winter Delight, Aging Fags, etc. are rated X. I will check out Sufficiently Breathless.

Winter Delight is not X rated and there is no way of doing what you want without retrobolting an existing line.

[stevetimetravlr]

All of the above is your opinion, and thats all it is.

Other people have different opinions, and that may lead to a concensus, and some things done differently. You put rap slings all over Beacon off of rap hangers, and then get furious when they get chopped. You place pins that you deem are needed but then again you get upset and go public when they are pulled. Yet you argue against placing a pin on a dangerous route that probably used a pin originally to lead it. Strange! To say Winter Delight is not X rated must be because you have not climbed it. I climb R and X rated routes, and I know what they mean. Winter Delight is not a safe route by any stretch. However, I am not debating that. I was simply suggesting that there be a trade route that reaches the anchors that allow people to access the spectacular dihedral of Bluebird Direct, and if Sufficiently Breathless allows that, then I am stoked to find that out.

[JosephH]

All of the above is your opinion, and thats all it is.

All of the above is fact, every word of it. Period.

 

Other people have different opinions, and that may lead to a concensus, and some things done differently.

A 'consensus' of lies, innuendo, misremembrances, and incorrect statements doesn't alter any of the facts involved and that's in effect what you're talking about. I have no doubt whatsoever you and others can fabricate the 'reality' you need in order to justify retrobolting at Beacon.

 

You put rap slings all over Beacon off of rap hangers, and then get furious when they get chopped.

No, I replaced anchors and for essentially every sling you see there was a sling or chain there prior to the replacement.

 

You place pins that you deem are needed but then again you get upset and go public when they are pulled.

I've placed some pins on my FAs, I haven't placed a pin on an existing route where there wasn't one previously.

 

Yet you argue against placing a pin on a dangerous route that probably used a pin originally to lead it.

I can only imagine what you consider dangerous. No, as I just said, those routes have all seen multiple free leads exactly as they are right now. You wish they "probably used pins" only because you can't envision it otherwise - the reality is they did not. No one has pulled any pins from those routes and they have not fallen out either - they're just stout, old school endeavors. Climb something else if you aren't up to the challenge.

 

Strange! To say Winter Delight is not X rated must be because you have not climbed it. I climb R and X rated routes, and I know what they mean. Winter Delight is not a safe route by any stretch. However, I am not debating that.

Many times and you don't sound like someone who climbs anything but 'safe' routes.

 

I was simply suggesting that there be a trade route that reaches the anchors that allow people to access the spectacular dihedral of Bluebird Direct, and if Sufficiently Breathless allows that, then I am stoked to find that out.

You won't know unless you climb it. Again, what you want is not possible without retrobolting an existing line.

[stevetimetravlr]

Whatever Joseph, its just your opinion no matter how loud you yell it.

I liked Winter Delight. Its a cool climb but there are a couple places where you better not blow a move, period. Bluebird Direct is really fabulous. Starts off thin fingers and goes to hand and fist at the very top. Super stellar. There is a cool detached block where the regular Bluebird route joins the dihedral that you can throw a leg over and ride like a horse for a full body rest, or just stand on it. Sustained stemming the whole way with good gear. What a ride, I highly recommend it.

[ivan]

if a route out there's been nailed before, feel free to nail on it now - if it in fact is being neglected, who's gonna bitch about it?

 

speaking of which, who wants to donate pins to fixing many of hte placements on smooth dancer so it stays in use (and so i don't have to actually try to funk the bastards out for steve? )

[denalidave]

if a route out there's been nailed before, feel free to nail on it now - if it in fact is being neglected, who's gonna bitch about it?

 

speaking of which, who wants to donate pins to fixing many of hte placements on smooth dancer so it stays in use (and so i don't have to actually try to funk the bastards out for steve? )

There's plenty of pins laying all over the place there... I just saw one on the notch the other day that nobody seems to use.

[kevbone]

I'm personally completely against retrobolting existing lines at Beacon for any reason, but particularly to make them 'safer'.

 

But adding bolts for a maintenance anchor next to perfect cracks just to make is safer is ok? Just asking.......

[JosephH]

Whatever Joseph, its just your opinion no matter how loud you yell it.

It must be an interesting to live in a world where there are only opinions and no facts - wow, just make up any shit you want. Cool. Build a consensus of nonsense and you can no doubt justify bolting anything.

 

The only thing I posted above that is opinion, is what I think about 'safe' climbing and Winter Delight's X-ness. Outside of that it is a fact that all the people I listed above have free climbed pretty much any route you can name exactly as they are today. It is fact that I didn't remove any necessary pins from any route. It is a fact it hasn't been raining pins off routes out there and they aren't changed from earlier free ascents. And it's a fact 85% of the anchor bolts replaced were bad, while only 25% or so of the pins were.

 

Facts and opinions, you actually have to work pretty hard to screw up the difference between them and those are facts - each and every one of them - none are a matter of opinion. You guys can have as many flat-Earth opinions as you want, but it doesn't change the facts. Again, don't like Beacon scarefests? Don't climb them.

 

 

[JosephH]

Who wants to donate pins to fixing many of hte placements on smooth dancer.

I don't have anymore of the CMI pins, but I have as many conventional pins as you need for existing, non-clean, aid lines if fixing any of those pin placements will prevent damage to the rock.

[kevbone]

I'm personally completely against retrobolting existing lines at Beacon for any reason, but particularly to make them 'safer'.

 

But adding bolts for a maintenance anchor next to perfect cracks just to make is safer is ok? Just asking.......

 

 

BUMP....just to drive my point home.

[stevetimetravlr]

Pounding on pins and stating that they are more solid and reliable then a bolt is a matter of opinion no matter how many times you state otherwise Joseph.

Also invoking names from the past of some of the guys I used to climb with is even more humorous.

No one is trying to dumb down Beacon or retrobolt. I simply think that Bluebird Direct is to good a climb and there should be a semi protectable climb to get to the dihedral of which Kevbone and Denali Dave were kind enough to point out that Suffciently Breathless does, but without all the negativity.

I think you need to take a chill pill and do some climbing. So lets do Bluebird Direct. You lead Winter Delight and I'll take over for the hard climbing, sound fair?

[JosephH]

Pounding on pins and stating that they are more solid and reliable then a bolt is a matter of opinion no matter how many times you state otherwise Joseph.

Only if you don't know anything about pins or how well the bolts at Beacon have performed.

 

Also invoking names from the past of some of the guys I used to climb with is even more humorous.

Then don't be so damn clueless in jumping to wishful conclusions and denigrating those guys' free climbing abilities without talking to them - all the free climbing they did at Beacon was on lines whose fixed protection is virtually unaltered today from when they did them. Anyone suggesting otherwise is completely full of shit and has no idea what they're talking about.

 

No one is trying to dumb down Beacon or retrobolt. I simply think that Bluebird Direct is to good a climb and there should be a semi protectable climb to get to the dihedral of which Kevbone and Denali Dave were kind enough to point out that Suffciently Breathless does, but without all the negativity.

There is no way to do what you said you wanted to do without retrobolting. And hey, re-read my first response to your post about the issue and you'll see nothing about it was negative - I simply stated my opinion on the matter and then you immediately took, and continue to take, this conversation negative.

 

I think you need to take a chill pill and do some climbing. So lets do Bluebird Direct. You lead Winter Delight and I'll take over for the hard climbing, sound fair?

Sure, once I'm back in shape to actually get up it. As it stands now I've only been out for one day of non-maintenance climbing and was violently ill that day as it turned out. Check back with me sometime next month if that's what you want to climb and that will be fine.

[crimper]

this whole thread is a little ridiculous. with all due respect, mr. time-traveler.

 

winter delight has like 5 bolts on it, and a bomber yellow tcu between the first and second bolt. it was always considered a slightly runout sport climb, as far as i know. i led it a couple times and was spooked, and wouldn't be excited to lead it again, but how could that be R or X? there's no ledges to hit, just some long (15-20 foot) falls if you blow a non-crux move. if winter delight is that far out of someone's comfort zone, they have no business doing bluebird.

 

furthermore, there's no reason to ever lead winter delight because "sufficiently breathless" eats up gear. and is easier than winter delight in ever way. there is no reason to do winter delight if it scares you.

 

if anything, we should be discussing "reasonable richard" as a scary and truly sparsely protected approach to "blood sweat and smears (BSS)"

 

and speaking of BSS, my friend arent pulled out a pin with his bare hands on it a few years back (at the very start of the climb)

 

so joe, you'd better make it "four" pins that have pulled out with bare hands. and to my knowledge that pin has not been replaced, leaving some very marginal placements behind. can anyone update that?

 

 

[JosephH]

There was a pin buried [very] low on RR that had been completely overgrown by a big hump of moss. It's there and reset, but as I said quite low. If Arent pulled one from higher up on the approach it would have been nice to know that so it could have been replaced and just not had the bolt in/out episode. If Arent knows where he pulled it from he or someone else should put one back, or I'd be happy to go out with him and see if we can figure out where it came from and replace it. RR is really the only 'attractive nuisance' of a line out there and then really only because of the rating / stars Olson gave it in PRC.

 

[ EDIT: NEVERMIND, I at first thought you were still talking RR, but I see you were actually talking about that pin on BSS, my bad. I thought Arent replaced that angle awhile back, or did he decide it was a placement that take pro well enough? ]

Edited August 16, 2010 by JosephH