Mountaineering boot?

[saxybrian]

Ok I have a set of plastics I use for mountaineering but they kinda destroy my feet on the decent and weight about 6 lbs total. I recently purchased the following boots

http://www.pacificnorthwestoutfittersstore.com/servlet/the-141/Mens-Sorel-Timberwolf-09/Detail?site=www.shopping.com

 

These Sorel Timberwolf 09 Winter Hiking Boots offer extreme, waterproof, cold weather ratings down to -40F/-40C while they are made for hiking, showshoeing or snowmobiling. Check out a few of the great features of these boots:

 

 

Upper: Waterproof seamsealed synthetic construction

Built-in gator loop on the vamp

400g Thinsulate™ insulation

Removable molded EVA comfort footbed

Molded EVA midsole for weight reduction and thermal protection

Molded TPU toe cap for protection and molded snowshoe grip in the heel

Traction enhancing multi-directional rubber lug outsole with shell bottom rated to -40 F

Boot is rated to -40 F/ -40 C

These boots are about 7.75 inches tall and weigh just around 24 oz. per boot. We carry them in two styles - Bark(shown) and Black and in half sizes 9, 9.5, 10, 10.5, 11, 11.5 and 12 in medium widths.

 

 

That's the specs it has. It looks like it's rated cold, water proof and everything, and is crampon compatable too. I'm curious if you were going to Rainier June 20th would you opt for the plastics and just duct tape the feet on the descent and lug the extra weight, or take these up in it's stead? I'm kinda scared because I don't want to get cold feet or something happen to my feet as that's my transportation however, saving 2.5 lbs expecially on your feet is a pretty huge deal when doing a quick push up the mountain.

 

Anyones thoughts on this? I'm leaning more towards these for this trip as I don't foresee it going below negative 20 at any point even if a storm blew in. Plus I'll be wearing high gators to avoid snow going in the boots.

[DPS]

These are not climbing boots and I would never wear them climbing. One of the things I noticed is no mention of any kind of a shank. That said, I once saw a half dozen Russian kids climb the DC route in late season, all wearing leather tennis shoes with newmatic crampons jury rigged on. The moral of my story is, they may work, but are for sure not optimal.

 

One solution is to wear running/hiking shoes for the approach/deproach to/from high camp, carrying the plastics on your back and only wear the plastics on summit day.

 

Another solution is to duct tape the hot spots on your feet and wear the plastics car to car and deal with the discomfort.

 

One more solution is to spend a bit more (ok, a lot more) and get a good quality leather mountaineering boot that fits your foot well and will serve your various climbing needs for years to come. A couple of models that come to mind are the La Sportiva Nepal EVO and the Scarpa Summit GTX. Both are modern versions of the classic full grain leather mountaineering boot but break in much quicker. They are also lightly insulated. You can wear them ice climbing, mixed alpine climbing, volcano slogging, etc.

[genepires]

ditto what Dan says. Try them on some ski area slopes and see how they perform if you already have them. They appear too soft for kicking steps.

 

If money is a issue, try used boots at second ascent. Those guys won't steer you wrong.

[DPS]

Many good options on sale here: http://www.sierratradingpost.com/search/SearchResults.aspx?allwords=mountaineering+boots&searchdescriptions=True&page=1

[saxybrian]

Yah that's what I was affraid of. The only thing that really irks me about them is when I step on my tip toes the boots bend giving me a LOT of flexability and piviting on my toe which is something the expe's don't do. I don't mind wearing them but saving 2.5lbs would really be awesome, however if my feet get cold I'd have to call a trip off and coming from texas there's really no place to test these at all

 

Also no way in hell I'm going to lug up 2 sets of boots i'd rather deal with the discomfort. But on the side note I'm more concerned about the flexibility on them than anything else as they do fit crampons, gators, water proof and are rated for neg 40.

[Coldfinger]

Well..... If the salesman or lady told you they'd be good for mountaineering, you'd better take them back for a refund. Either they're idiots or they lied.

 

As Yvon Choiunard wrote in "Climbing Ice": "You can't dance on hard ice with soft-soled shoes." (p. 87)

 

"Crampon compatible" doesn't mean much nowadays as there are many strap only designs that can even be used with Teva sandals.

 

Where do they "destroy" your feet? If you are banging your toes they're too short (mountaineering boots should be sized a bit big so you have toe room for both warmth and descending comfort). If it's in the arch you may need custom orthotic footbeds. If they're too narrow a good ski shop should be able to stretch the plastic shells.

 

My 2 cents is that I'm amazed more people aren't killed, crippled or rescued because they use gear dangerously (i.e. doing what it wasn't designed for) all in the name of ultralight. Boots and crampons (with antibotts) are THE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE OF SAFETY GEAR!!!!!!!!! Better to learn this on the web than in the real world.

 

Don't take this the wrong way but it kinda sounds like you may not have the experience to take on big glaciated or ice routes safely so please find some experienced partners or a guide. We all started somewhere and it really is the most dangerous time in a mountaineer's career, I for one am grateful to the folks that kept me safe while I was cutting my teeth.

 

Good boots are definitely worth the cash but they have to fit right. Go plastics or an insulated single boot. Different brands tend to fit differently and if your feet are wide modern fabric boots fit better and break in easier IMHO.

 

Hope that helps! PM me if need be.

 

 

[saxybrian]

Check the trip report in the rainier TR for the april 20th - 23rd trip and you can see a pic of the blister.

 

I've got the experience on that but just had one question regarding the shoes~

[Dane]

Some excellent advice above, all from guys who have done a lot of this stuff.

 

Great TR and effort btw! My comments are about boot observations in general, use what you see fit

 

 

But geezus dude that is one nasty blister. I've seen some good ones guiding but nothing like that!

 

That kind of injury should have set you on a path to square away your mountaineering foot wear. I have to assume this thread is all about that, right?

 

If so, first ditch the plastics for the majority of what you do. Too much boot for anything but Rainier around here and then only in some nasty conditions. Plastics use to be the standard, now there are much better options. Getting too hot of feet is almost as bad and can be just as debilitationg as too cold of feet. As bad as the weather was on yourr last trip that looks to be a heat induced blister not a friction induced blister. If I am wrong about that, get rid of your platics because they DON"T FIT YOU.

 

I'm taking from your previous commnet that as NOT 23 summits on Rainier right?

 

Many of us wear some kind of runner or lwt hiker to Muir or Sherman or Observation Rock when the conditions allow it. And there are boots similar to what you have shown that I would wear to the summit most any time, depending on conditions. But Daniel is right first they have to have a shank to support your foot.

 

I prefer a rigid soled boot a majority of the time if I am in crampons. Generally less comfortable to walk in but there are a few newer models that make even a rigid sole worth dealing with. La Sportiva Trango Extreme and Batura come to mind as does the Scarpa Phantom series. Add crampons and you have the Ferrari's of the mtn boot world. The lwt mtn boots like the Scarpa Charmoz or La Sportiva Trango and the others mentioned work almost as well and maybe better in perfect weather, just hiking and in crampons up higher. Boots are all about fit first and then what the intended use is.

 

I'll go with ColdFinger on this, "Boots and crampons (with antibotts) are THE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE OF SAFETY GEAR."

 

I've been to Muir dozens of times in plastics, when typically a running shoe would have done just as well and hope to never, ever have to do it again

 

Sounds like you know all that already and you are certainly on the right track attempting to drop weight off your feet. Ounces do count.

 

"Keep in mind that for every 1 lb of footwear, it's like carrying an extra 6.4 lb of weight on your back."

 

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/05/why-weight-of-your-footwear-is.html

[saxybrian]

Awesome Maybe I can get those for next year, it seems it's plastics for me again this year.

 

Thanks for the info here guys, I've got a pretty good knoweledge about everything else, the only thing I wasn't 100% sure on was foot wear. I'm gonna duct tape my feet on the decent this year to avoid the blisters as that's the only time I got them so that should help prevent anything super nasty. And the previous year I was on teh summit it was 3.5 miles from Muir and I didn't get blisters on the way down which was odd, only from Muir to parking lot does it seem to destroy my feet. (Maybe fatigue?) Anyways, good advice and perhaps i'll have a nice pair of those next year!

[Dane]

Get some custom foot beds. They drop right in your inner boots. Don't rely on a bad fit and duct tape to help your feet. Sounds like a heat blister (not a friction blister) in the boot to me on that terrain and in that position on your foot. Duct tape (which does not breath) will just make it worse imo. Pulling it off a blister like that could be a serious medical issue. Duct tape is awesome for friction blisters in a pinch. I'd do some more walking in your boots around home and figure out exactly why your boots are eating your feet before I took them on Rainier again.

 

A bad summit day and you might find your self walking down in NO boots from Muir if that blister is any indication.

 

 

[saxybrian]

I'm almost positive that it's a friction blister. I didn't tie my shoes super tight that day on the way down and my feet always move fotwards my toes going down. I never have issues on the way up, it's only down, so my assumption is and what I feel is my foot sliding forward.

 

Maybe I just have baby feet, maybe my shoes suck, maybe their a bit too large, but regardless I've made it down in a blister like that and it sucked and I want to avoid that again. I was thinking of stuffing the bottom of the shoe with maybe some foam or something to give me less space to wiggle.

[Coldfinger]

Dane was quite right, burns like those are really unusual--quite troubling. Not just how big but WHERE they are. You are doing a few things the wrong way if feet look like that after a simple outing.

 

There's something called trench foot, but that's wet plus fungus. Make sure you have dry socks and dry out your feet and the liners whenever you get the chance. Friction blisters get A LOT worse if your feet are wet.

 

Kinda sounds like you are about as broke $$wise as most of us, so how did you get the boots? One of the sucky things about being a poor climber is you get stuck with all the shit that don't fit.

 

Also make sure you slow down when walking and descending. Going too fast creates quite a bit more stress and friction. Nothing wrong with zig zagging and butt sliding (glissade) on the way down.

 

Plastics have two sets of laces so try to dial in how tight the liners and shells need to be for what you're doing at the time. Even with single boots I will change the lace tension as needed. You can tighten the top sets of laces to keep your foot from sliding, but if you're foot moves that much you have to either tighten the laces or get new boots because they don't fit and you're fucked.

 

Figure out if your socks are bunching or were doing anything strange. Are they too old or too heavy weight? Try different things, i.e. midweights and liners, hikers, heavy socks etc.

 

Last question: are you diabetic? It's quite often the root cause of strange problems with extremities like feet.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Coldfinger

[saxybrian]

Not poor by any means just trying to pay off debt and I can't justify 400 bucks for a new set of boots this year. And no, i'm not diabetic. I've got everything dialed by down-hill in my feet. As I've stated uphill = fine, just the downhill is what turns my feet into ash.

[Coldfinger]

Poke around, there are boots to be found on the cheap. My $400 boots were less than $200.

 

Sorry about the diabetic q, just see a few really nasty foot injuries from that.

[Dane]

I humbly beg to differ CF, Trench foot is actually a cold injury and has nothing to do with fungus. Once experienced it can be a precursor to frost bite but can be and generally is had at any temperature below 60F. Same issue below 32F and it is frostbite.

 

My guess from some research over the last couple of years is a lot of climbers have had trench foot in the newest fabric boots and are unknowingly left more vunerable to trench foot again or serious frost bite because of it.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trench_foot

 

That blister has nothing to do with Trench foot.

 

I've seen a lots of blisters. Only time I have seen anything like that, in that position and of similar size is from a kid walking on really hot pavement.

 

Boot fit is in question because if your foot was slipping backward and then forward on a moderate descent that much to cause that kind of blister your toes should also be damaged. If they are not I'd say your boots are way, way too big from what I have seen so far.

 

If you are coming from Texas to climb Rainier you have enough money to get your boots properly fit. Insoles and a proper fit by a professional boot fitter is good insurance and cheap in comparison to trashed feet and/or a ruined trip for you or your partners. Too big you can fix to a point. Too small and you'd have to get new boots.

 

You made it down from Muir which is 5 miles and 5000 feet from the parking lot...coming down from the summit is another much steeper 4500 feet of elevation to loose and much harder on your feet while in crampons.

 

This is not intended as an insult. If I saw your feet in that condition I wouldn't allow you on my rope. You may consider yourself experienced. I can tell by your lack of concern for your feet and boot choices that you would be well served by rethinking your position on foot wear and fit for Rainier.

 

[edit]

CF is right on. No one should pay retail for boots. Ebay, here on CC.com and on sale via the web is the answer there. I won't even look at boots that aren't at least 20% off retail. 50% or more is even better. Let goggle be your friend.

 

 

[saxybrian]

I've been to the summit in rainier on these boots before and my feet were a bit tender when I got back to muir, but for some reason, going from Muir down it ripped them in shreds again. I don't know what that one strech of land has against me but it only seems going down from muir kills me. Maybe I go down too fast? Maybe it's the lack of crampons? Maybe I don't lace my shoes up tight enough on the way down? It's weird, I mean hell my insulation is so tug around my feet and laced up so well it doesnt' move around at all, but the insulation/boot layer is what's a bit loose and tha tseems to casue the issue I think.

 

My feet always stay warm and haven't gotten cold once in those things. This is just weird it seems. I think we're getting some where, but i'm not quiet sure where it's getting.

 

I don't think it's an issue with being to hot/cold on my feet or wet since I've never seen them wet. And it only appears to happen going down, but my toes always end up fine whcih is odd... and only down from Muir. And even at that, I seem to notice the blisters around pebble creek if that helps.

[saxybrian]

Poke around, there are boots to be found on the cheap. My $400 boots were less than $200.

 

Sorry about the diabetic q, just see a few really nasty foot injuries from that.

 

thanks about the diabetic question my buddy going with me this year is and I'll bring that up to him and let him know to keep a very close eye on his feet.

[Dane]

Has this kind of damage ( the blister) happen on all three of your Rainier trips or just the most recent? What plastic boot and what size are you using. Your normal street shoe size? Blister always in the same place? No other damage or blisters on the rest of your foot? One or both feet?

 

Do you wear your boot anywhere else besides a yearly visit to Rainier?

 

Super warm feet is a good thing. Too warm of feet is bad.

 

I have some ideas but want to hear more first.

[saxybrian]

Yah it's pretty much happened each year, however that blister was by far the worse one I've ever seen. Usually it's half that size and maybe a few smaller ones on the other feet like I had. I think I'll do the duct tape thing on the trip to the summit/down but to muir i'll go w/o duct tape. If that fails me again this year, then I'll fork up some bling sell those boots and buy a new pair.

[Dane]

If you are determined to go "as is" duct tape or better yet mole skin up first and maintain it for your trip..up and down. Also worth making the effort to prep your feet every day for a few weeks before hand and during the climb with Tincture of Benzoin.

 

And learn why you should.

 

If you aren't now I would also get a super thin, poly pro liner sox and wear them, changing to dry ones every day. I'd also carry Betadine Swabs and a needle kit, check your feet often and drain the blisters early on if they show.

 

A $30 pair of insoles might solve a lot of your problems.

 

Good luck!

[Coldfinger]

Miraculous what a good night of sleep does for the brain....

 

Why don't you call the local Rainier guide services and see what rental boots will cost and what they have available and where else in Wa. you might rent boots? Kinda sounds like you have a sizing prob and that might be a very good and cheaper solution.

 

Sorry for the tone, but understand that in the old days (I'm dating myself here), there really wasn't anything more important than boots. You get the right kind, make sure they fit, and then break them in over period of time (first in the house (so they can be returned!), then around town, then longer and longer trips). BTW the break in period saves one from finding out on the big trip that there are serious boot problems.

 

Dane wrote:

 

"This is not intended as an insult. If I saw your feet in that condition I wouldn't allow you on my rope. You may consider yourself experienced. I can tell by your lack of concern for your feet and boot choices that you would be well served by rethinking your position on foot wear and fit for Rainier."

 

Repeating the same mistake and expecting different results is irrational to say the least, and I'm with Dane 100% on what he said about people on his team.

 

While I'm guessing as to Dane's motivations here, it's been my experience that there is nothing that ruins a client's trip more often than poorly fitting boots. At the least one ends up with really bad blisters--one person had third degree burns on her heels--and at the worst things turn into a serious situation involving rescue and/or the entire team having to turn back. So do understand that we've (again guessing as to Dane) seen too many trips ruined by clients and partners being idiots and bringing the wrong and/or poor fitting footwear. I learned the hard way and was lucky to escape with only frostnip.

 

Basically, it's a dick move to put the success and safety of your team at risk simply because one can't be bothered to bring good footwear. It's not that complicated, so I'm always wary of partners/clients who can't seem to master such a simple concept when there are far more complicated and dangerous things at play on a big mountain.

 

Kinda sounds like you want to move on to bigger and harder things than Rainier, so get with the program. It takes years and years before one has even the smallest mastery of anything in life, including climbing.

 

You have to be a tough and determined SOB to soldier on through an injury like that and deserve a lot of credit for guts. So you have what it takes to be really good at this. But stubbornness can get one into a shitpile of trouble up high.

[Dane]

Missed the rental idea myself. Good thought.

 

Cold Finger: sez:

"Basically, it's a dick move to put the success and safety of your team at risk "...right on.

 

Any injury in the mtns that can so easily be prevented should never happen. Not making the effort makes no sense to me.

[tomtom]

Maybe I don't lace my shoes up tight enough on the way down?

Make sure your feet are not sliding around inside your boots on descent. Relative movement generates friction which results in blisters.

[saxybrian]

Emailed RMI and got a pretty awesome response. In short they said the plastics will do and you shouldn't have any issues going up, but the issues going down are pretty common in those type of boots. He stated that those are boots usually used on Denali Exp'd. They stated what they would suggest is the following, get a pair of nice leather's or if you can't do that, duct tape should help stop the blisters on the way down since you go down so fast and those boots are meant for a slow steady pace. Hence going up gives me no issues.

 

Gonna take the boots, tape the feet and see how it treats me this year. I've done it 3x in the past and been fine with the exception of this last trips blister. Taping should make things a lot nice and if I actually take the time to make sure the laces are a LOT tighter going down it should help with the uber blister on the way down cuppled with the tape I think I may get away scott free.

[genepires]

Make sure your inner liner is tight but the shell is snug. If you crank down the inner and outer laces, then you force the friction to happen on your foot. If there is a small slop between inner and outer boots, the friction will happen there instead of your foot.

 

you might already know that, but your post wasn't clear that you knew that.

 

If you search on then net, you may be able to find different lacing patterns to solve different foot issues. You can weave the laces in different patterns to apply or relieve forces to foot.

 

good luck on rainier.