3 mm Everest Super Suit/Clothing for extreme cold?

[ASmith]

Dane,

 

Have you seen this stuff. Everest Super Suit only 3mm thick.

 

http://theadventureblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/champion-unveils-super-suit-for-use-on.html

 

More info on the Hanes Super Suit here:

 

www.climbwithus.com/#/updates/article?id=104

 

At just 3 millimeters thick, the Champion Supersuit, which will be tested this spring on Mount Everest, provides equal insulation, greater mobility and superior wind resistance compared with a typical 40-millimeter-thick goose-down parka

 

 

Edited February 3, 2010 by ASmith

[Water]

holy hell, if one is to believe it, that is some impressive stuff!

for some more info without as much of the stupid flash webpage barely readable impossible to navigate hpye: http://www.zeroloft.com/

 

The everest trip will test it pretty well, I imagine

[BigSky]

I've been wondering when that stuff was going to make it to apparel.

[Jon H]

I'll only believe it when Dane posts his review.

[nhluhr]

By my calculations, 3mm of silica aerogel is equivalent to no more than 20mm of down insulation when one considers only the conductive/convective properties. I wonder if the much improved radiant properties of aerogel (plus the foil barrier) will give it that extra bit to meet the claim of 40mm down equivalence...

Edited February 4, 2010 by nhluhr

[ASmith]

More Info:

 

Now another breakthrough is hitting the consumer outdoor products market based on a man-made material called aerogel. It is lighter than air in its pure form, warmer than down, can be compressed, is breathable and is virtually unbreakable. It keeps hots things hot and cold things cold – How does it do it?

 

 

Aerogel

There seems to be no simple or short answer to what is an aerogel. Most text describe a manufacturing process where liquids are replaced with air involving a polymerization process. Being simple, I like to think of aerogel as a tiny, as in microscopic, layer of bubble wrap; which I am sure makes scientists and engineers cringe.

 

First mentioned in a paper published in the journal, Nature, in 1931, scientist recognized an opportunity to improve insulation material. Monsanto initially used it in napalm and cigarettes in the 1940’s but it was primarily used as a flattening agent in paint and varnishes.

 

Monsanto abandoned its use in the 1970’s. It was expensive and difficult to manufacture according to the website areogel.org . One challenge was that exposure to a significant amount of aerogel dust created serious respiratory issues.

 

Aerogel can be manufactured from many base materials including silca, carbon, copper, gelatin and more exotic combination’s. The secret is a final product that is 98% air – an excellent insulator. We know that air pockets in feathers trap warmth thus providing insulation, however feathers need loft or thickness to function well. Also, feathers are bulky (or puffy in a jacket) and require a serious commitment from the donor.

 

 

Aerogel Jacket

Enter NASA. Think spacesuit. They needed superior insulation for astronauts and space probes. Oh cost was a minor issue. In 1993, Aspen Systems, of Marlborough, Massachusetts, secured a contract from NASA to develop an aerogel manufacturing process.

 

Soon, Cryogel®, was used in launch vehicles, Space Shuttle upgrades, interplanetary propulsion, and life support equipment. Now called Spaceloft™, gloves designed for the Mars mission will use aerogels.

 

Aspen Aerogels, a spinoff company, was tasked with commercializing aerogels and soon got a handle on the difficult manufacturing problems and expanded the product line into window and skylight insulation, non-flammable building insulation, and inexpensive firewall insulation that will withstand fires in homes and buildings. And outdoor clothing. It was successfully tested on an Antarctic expedition.

 

The performance of the material is astounding providing protection from – 200°C to + 635°C. A 3 mm thick layer of aerogel can protect the human body even at temperatures below -50°C.

 

A few outdoor products already use aerogels. Burton sold a jacket and mittens with aerogel since 2005. But it costs twice as much as their non-aerogel versions and has been discontinued.

 

The Gearcaster recently noted a few current offerings:

 

The Quiver AeroPoint.50, a water bottle insulator that claims to keep your liquid cold ten times longer than uncovered.

Camelbak’s Podium water bottle, targeted to cyclists, uses aerogel as the primary insulating agent. They claim 4x increase in staying power at a cost of $20 for a 21 oz bottle.

Pacific Outdoors has marketed a sleeping pad based on Aerogel since 2007 with good reviews.

Other products include Toasty Feet insoles and even tennis rackets from Dunlop.

Fast forward to the January 2010 Outdoor Retailer show in Salt Lake City where Hanesbrands with their Champion apparel brand showed more of their climber’s line including their new Supersuit. It uses a version of aerogel they call Zero-Loft Aerogel.

 

The aerogel layer is the primary insulating material and is sandwiched within three other layers that provide wicking, reflection of body heat and wind resistance. They say it is four times as warm as down.

 

 

Champion Supersuit Jacket

It will undergo a test on an Everest expedition this spring with Canadian climber Jamie Clark. I already noted their effort last Fall to test the new line on Nepal’s Pumori. While called a suit, it is actually a separate jacket and pant combination.

 

Precise details on whether products for climbers will be available and price points is still unclear to me.

 

Mike Abbott, director of research and development for Hanesbrands has been quoted as saying “By developing the Supersuit and other garment layers to be used on Everest, we have identified new Champion products to roll out and new features and enhancements to potentially add to our everyday line of Champion Athletic Apparel.”

 

One hint of future products comes from this statement in a press release:

 

The Champion and Duofold brands will use the Everest project’s research discoveries for new products and enhanced products for years to come. The first products inspired by or influenced by the Everest project will come to market in fall 2010.

 

Champion will introduce Cold Weather Gear that can be layered in various combinations to promote warmth and comfort, a technique that will be used during the Mount Everest expedition. The Champion Cold Weather gear is value-priced training activewear made from lightweight fabrics to maximize mobility and reduce bulk, even while layering for warmth in modest temperatures.

 

The material has seen Everest before. Climber Anne Parmenter wore a pair of aerogel socks and insoles on her 2006 summit. Her only complaint – her feet got too hot!

 

We have seen breakthrough claims before with quarks, superconducting materials and plastic. Some made it, others didn’t; primarily due to manufacturing issues and the final cost to consumers. Today, we would add environmental issues to the challenge list for any product.

 

Climbers in particular seems to try these out and return to natural products like goose feathers and Merino sheep wool. I am totally confident that the Champion gear will protect mountaineer Jamie Clark. The next question is for the rest of us. Can outdoor clothing manufacturers deliver a high quality product, in quantity, at a consumer price point using aerogel?

 

I hope so because I want one! And maybe geese will stop flying into our planes.

 

Edited February 4, 2010 by ASmith

[G-spotter]

Sounds like it doesn't breathe at all.

Vapour barrier? Used before but too hot?

 

Dubious at best. Dangerous possibly.

[Water]

dangerous? shopping bags and water can be dangerous too..

did you look at any of the short videos on the zeroloft website? I guess if it doesn't breathe worth a damn in a jacket or pants it could be dangerous, but, you'd be aware of that before setting off to conquer olympus mons, right? The stuff has some obvious insulating properties that are indeed pretty impressive at least in the laboratory. Now ultimately it may not work on getting them into every, or even many forms of outdoor gear.

 

Does the idea sound cool at all to you? I can think of a fair amount of applications where the insulation would be wonderful vapor permeable or not (sleeping pad). I'd love to see how small it could roll down/durability/longevity/etc.

[Dane]

http://www.climbwithus.com/#/gear-up

 

With a little more reading on the web site seems like the Zero-Loft Aerogel insulation focus is simple hocus pocus. Bait and switch.

 

The clothing system Jamie is actually using is Champion's/Duofold version of every other climbing suit many of us use now and anyone can buy off the shelf.

 

The flip side is there have been some amazing advances in insulation. Primaloft being one of them that has a extremely high Clo value. Beyond what its thickness would indicate.

 

Pumori base camp aint Everest mind you. Nice gig if you can get it though.

 

Abbott is the R&D behind the project. He leaves a lot between the lines here.

 

"Pearson: How did the summit suit work?

Abbott: As you can imagine, the summit suit and its warmth without bulk functionality is still a work in progress. We are very far along with it, and it will be the most technologically advanced and challenging piece of apparel gear we develop. We learned quite a bit on Pumori, and we will continue to test new refinements in the Canadian Rockies this winter. We had some technical difficulties (Drew caught it..doesn't breath) with it at altitude, which is exactly why we wanted to field test it in the Himalaya.

 

Abbott: Gearwise, it was the importance of staying dry. You’re going to sweat and having the right gear to keep your base layer dry (again doesn't breath) is absolutely paramount. You can insulate all you want, but if you’re wet, you’re miserable. I also learned that you’re never comfortable and nothing is easy."

 

Drew already got the major issue, it doesn't breath.

Does it compact? 4x better than down?

 

..water bottle insulator...a sleeping pad...insoles (all already available) and now a "super suit". It's possible but a huge leap imo. Won't be the first NASA technology used in climbing clothing that flamed, sputtered and died. Ever heard of "Francital". Similar idea from 30 years ago.

 

"The aerogel layer is the primary insulating material and is sandwiched within three other layers that provide wicking, reflection of body heat and wind resistance. They say it is four times as warm as down." Almost exactly what Francital said back then...and almost true except it didn't breath either. It was good enough that it bacame the unofficial canadian guide's winter climbing/heli ski jacket. Zero-Loft Aerogel obviously has some potential. Be interesting to see if "we" can really afford (in several ways) the results.

 

What I see that is true is an amazingly good pr stunt to this point.

 

 

[Julian]

It was good enough that it bacame the unofficial canadian guide's winter climbing/heli ski jacket.

 

Totally unrelated product but this line reminded me of a question that you might know the answer to:

 

What happened to those SUN-ICE insulated one-piece suits that pretty much every badass Canadian alpine climber (Blanchard, Doyle, Robinson, Cheesmond, etc.) was wearing back in the day? They seemed like all the rage in the 1980s if photos of Everest, Nanga Parbat, etc. are any indication.

[Dane]

My impression was Sun-Ice wanted some exposure...and they did well for the climbers and themselves.

 

http://www.sunice.com/

[RokIzGud]

I wonder how much the suits will cost... If they can make them breath it sounds pretyt sweet.