Lead Bolting Ethics....

[Checat]

You indicate (g-spotter) of a "new, modern crag" as completely focused on your subjective principles of development. I am a part of the development a "new, modern crag" that saw its first routes around 1998 and it has zero bolts, utilizes gear for all anchor points; lead, belay, multipitch and otherwise and is developed in what I consider a "modern" ethic. Just because bolts are vogue does not mean they are synonymous with "modern".

 

 

[el jefe]

her we go again...

[G-spotter]

You indicate (g-spotter) of a "new, modern crag" as completely focused on your subjective principles of development. I am a part of the development a "new, modern crag" that saw its first routes around 1998 and it has zero bolts, utilizes gear for all anchor points; lead, belay, multipitch and otherwise and is developed in what I consider a "modern" ethic. Just because bolts are vogue does not mean they are synonymous with "modern".

 

 

Ya and you are from Oregon that has a thimbleful of granite so keep it in your pants and let the grownups talk, cause this is so over your head you might well get a snorkel.

[Kimmo]

i think i need a snorkel too. snorkel. now that's a fun word!

[Checat]

let the grownups talk. keep it in my pants. Over my head. Truly spoken like an idiot who has no intelligent response to a non-bolting ethic. Do you have safety railings to help you sit down to take a shit as well? Maybe anti-slip coating to make it out to your car?

 

So you really have no intelligible response, just pooh flinging?

 

Totally unrelated, Oregon has a f-load of quartzite. The stuffs pretty hard, doesn't leave me disappointed in any lack of Granite in Oregon. There is a multitude of great rock here.

[Kimmo]

from schnorchel, german for air intake. hmph.

[Kimmo]

now now children....

[Kimmo]

can anyone tell me where the word "snorkel" comes from?

[G-spotter]

It's a tube used when muffdiving.

 

OOOOh, you've got Quartzite. Wow. Which everyone knows climbs and protects just like granite

[DCramer]

actually, climbing can be quite "complicated"; that's part of its appeal to me.

 

Perhaps we just evaluate "complicated" against a different standard..

 

 

as far as it being an "art"....i kinda think it is what we make of it. marc could make it routine, like "taking out the trash", or he could put some imagination into it, and have it be something a little more. i guess i kinda feel badly for you that something you've done for so long is nothing more than "taking out the trash" (although even taking out the trash has the potential for being art).

 

We both agree on what I bolded in red so I wonder just why you feel badly for me. If I did value climbing and taking out the trash equally just why would that be bad?

 

Let me clarify: I find climbing much more enjoyable than taking out the trash. I do not find the act of climbing itself to be more artful than taking out the trash.

 

What I have found most enjoyable about climbing is experiencing things for myself, trying different things out and creating my own tradition so to speak. While I haven’t discovered anything particularly unique or earth shattering the process of discovering that tradition is what I value most about climbing.

 

Following other peoples values and preferences to avoid the “routine” – I guess that means low value - experience is the opposite of producing a work of art but more than that it limits the range of experiences available. In some sense I value the process over the outcome.

 

I find most of the discussions of climbing as art to be more artifice than art – “art” is simply a tool to justify sorting individual experiences a hierarchy from low value to high value.

 

[Checat]

Never said it climbs and protects like granite. Just would let you know because you obviously don't know much - that its a quality rock to climb on. And to any ignoramouses like yourself that assume all Oregon has is tuft and basalt - Keep climbing at Smith, us Oregonians are pretty content to keep the other good stuff to ourselves.

 

[hafilax]

We're talking about granite slab with no chance of natural protection. In Canada we protect those routes with bolts. It has nothing to do with vogue.

[Checat]

You set the bar high for posting on this website while saying absolutely nothing jefe, so you should do what you were doing before, not weigh in because all you do is flame and troll without any real climbing discussion. This is a rock-climbing forum right? I bet you theres websites out there for people that are simply worried about talking smack to others and they are full of people who don't know shit about rock-climbing, you'd do well there.

 

[Checat]

I'm not necessarily against all bolting. But if you are a point in your climbing career where you are consulting the internet on whether or not a bolt should placed and how that bolt should go in - you probably shouldn't be bolting. Leave it to those interested in understanding the area they are climbing/developing in and show discretion. It should be a process of

 

a.should the bolt go in?

 

b. what is the best ethics, styles and tactics for the ascent of the route?

 

c. Can _(insert potential developers name here)__ adequately bolt and climb the route in that ethic/style/tactic?

 

Too often people skip to the wrong question -

 

d. what is going to have to happen for _"ME!"(unsuitable potential developers name here) ___ to develop this line at all costs?

 

Overused Oregonian example to the case in point: the Tvedts and whatever midgets they were manicuring routes at Flagstone for comes to mind.

[hafilax]

Marc is basically the only developer in the area in question. There are no overuse issues.

 

His real mistake is asking Americans for advice on what to do with Canadian rock. squamishclimbing.com would probably have resulted in a much more meaningful and shorter conversation.

[Kimmo]

We're talking about granite slab with no chance of natural protection. In Canada we protect those routes with bolts. It has nothing to do with vogue.

 

you're such a nationalist.

 

have you been to this slab? have you witnessed first-hand this situation? and even if you had, would you be in a position to evaluate its possibilities for being climbed without bolts?

 

nah, didn't think so.

[hafilax]

I know Marc, I know what he's climbed, I know his opinions on climbing style and I trust his judgment.

[Kimmo]

I know Marc, I know what he's climbed, I know his opinions on climbing style and I trust his judgment.

 

i'm not sure what that says about your judgment, given that the thread is about marc's uncertainly around his judgment.

 

kinda funny, no?

[Kimmo]

squamishclimbing.com would probably have resulted in a much more meaningful and shorter conversation.

 

"bolt the motherfucker, eh!"

 

"giv'er eh!"

 

"now can we go get drunk, eh?"

Edited February 3, 2010 by Kimmo

[hafilax]

I trust his judgment on evaluating the natural protection available on a route and I know the local rock patterns.

 

You guys are niggling at points that should be obvious from the OP. He just wants to climb with a pure style and doesn't have a lot of experience bolting on lead. There aren't really a lot of locals for him to talk to. In fact G-spotter is probably the best person for him to ask. He's probably the only person to respond who knows exactly the line in question, the history of the area and I know he's climbed with Marc.

 

Anyway, this is turning into a waste of time.

[corvallisclimb]

Hey Che get your facts straight bro. You act like you know fucking everything and everyone on here is wrong and a total wanker. But calling out good friends of mine online who had nothing to do with what your talking about is wrong, and where I have to chime in. Seriously fuck off no one gives two shits about your anti-bolt spray.

 

 

Overused Oregonian example to the case in point: the Fralicks and whatever midgets they were manicuring routes at Flagstone for comes to mind.

[Checat]

Your right that no one is interested in anti-bolt spray in a forum about Lead Bolting ethics. This Marc developer and other developers would be much more interested in how bolts can go up in a Positive way - so-

 

Pertinent to the topic "Lead Bolting Ethics...".

 

You are saying that I am calling out good friends of yours - this is in references to the Tvedts and the bolts they have placed at Flagstone, correct?

 

Do you agree that there should be bolts every 3-4 feet on a low angle slab?

 

Do you agree with bolts that were not involved with a routes first ascent but were added later for the sake of a larger mass appeal?

 

It wouldn't be a waste of time - as another poster stated - if there was at least some discussion over what "good" bolting practices are. Corvallisclimb - you bolt, why don't you bring something to the table instead of focusing on a broken record(Bolts vs. No-Bolts). How should this Marc person go about his plight stylistically?

 

BTW As far as -"You act like you know fucking everything and everyone on here is wrong and a total wanker" - Climbing ethics is completely subjective. What is true for you may not be true for others. I'm actually in agreement with a great number of people that have posted on this topic that have focused on what the climbers before Marc have done in regard to his route development dilemma.

[G-spotter]

In fact G-spotter is probably the best person for him to ask. He's probably the only person to respond who knows exactly the line in question, the history of the area and I know he's climbed with Marc.

 

Anyway, this is turning into a waste of time.

 

On the contrary, getting clueless non-locals to bloviate about how they do it in their backwater choss-piles is almost exactly the point!

[el jefe]

I'm not necessarily against all bolting. But if you are a point in your climbing career where you are consulting the internet on whether or not a bolt should placed and how that bolt should go in - you probably shouldn't be bolting. Leave it to those interested in understanding the area they are climbing/developing in and show discretion. It should be a process of

 

a.should the bolt go in?

 

b. what is the best ethics, styles and tactics for the ascent of the route?

 

c. Can _(insert potential developers name here)__ adequately bolt and climb the route in that ethic/style/tactic?

 

Too often people skip to the wrong question -

 

d. what is going to have to happen for _"ME!"(unsuitable potential developers name here) ___ to develop this line at all costs?

 

Overused Oregonian example to the case in point: the Fralicks and whatever midgets they were manicuring routes at Flagstone for comes to mind.

 

how's life up on that soapbox, che?

[ivan]

on the plus side, this thread got almost 3 pages of decent material in before it turning into a muff-diving snorkel debate