Glacier Travel

[617]

Question from a relatively new climber from back east where we don't have glaciers:

 

Basically, when do you rope up?

 

Or more precisely, when do you sometimes NOT rope up? What mountains, what grade glacier, time of year, weather conditions, etc. do you just not bother. Obviously everyone's level of risk acceptance is different, just wondering what the variance is and what to evaluate when stepping onto a glacier. I took a crevasse rescue class this spring and the "company line" was basically any and all glaciers at all times, but I think that seems over conservative. The Palmer Glacier on Hood (underneath the ski area!) seems an obvious exception to that rule but I'm new to glacier travel so who knows. I also don't do any ski mountaineering (yet) but it seems like they are always unroped ripping turns on the way down. What are they seeing that gives them that confidence?

 

[spotly]

You're gonna get a dozen different answers so start out concervative and draw your own conclusions.

 

As for me, I rope up nearly every time.

[Bug]

Rope up early. Rope up often.

Until you have been out a thousand times, you will not want to un rope. And then, you may still fall in a crevasse as so many famous adn not so famous climbers have.

Have fun!

[t_rutl]

Rope up early. Rope up often.

 

from Minus 148 (first winter ascent of Denali)...good book and always worth learning from other mistakes!!

 

- "The bareheaded Frenchman came bouncing alone and unroped with a big grin on his face...After all, Farine had more experience on glaciers than either of them had."

 

- "Where he had expected to see Farine there was only an empty glacier."

 

- "There was no movement of pupils; no reaction. There was no pulse. The face was purplish. George pronounced him dead."

 

While roping up can be a nuisance sometimes it's good not to get complacent...even if you you travel glaciers a thousand and one times never breaking through or falling it only takes once...

[617]

As a beginner I realize my own decisions will come with my own experience but would like to see what more experienced people do without the fear of liability that an organized class or guide book has.

 

Not sure if it's even answerable, maybe like asking the question "when do you wear your seatbelt when driving". Maybe a way to shed light on the subject is to note mountains/routes which you (not me) don't typically rope up on. As mentioned, the Palmer on Hood would be a seemingly low-risk one to me. Or on St Helens the winter route seems to go over the Swift Glacier? Same with Adams, it looks like the standard south route crosses or goes very near the Crescent Glacier (?) that seems to be mostly ignored. Even Camp Muir seems to have signs talking about crevasses on the snowfield, yet I'd guess very few on this board rope up for it. Just curious what factors experienced climbers/skiers take into account when choosing not to bother.

 

[hkrhnk11]

I'll have to echo the others on this about always roping up. It only takes once and there's no reset button.

 

That being said, I usually feel better about travel on glaciers that I've seen butt naked, or really late season after a bad snow year. I'll still rope up, but I feel more confident about route finding cause I have a better feel for what's under the snow.

I've never roped up on Palmer because it doesn't have any crevasses.

[genepires]

I have known two people who fell in a moat (that was covered like a crevasse in early season) trying to get on a glacier. For anyone getting advice on the "newbie" forum, rope up before getting on a glacier for the moat alone.

 

I solo'd only one glacier (on athabasca) and I think it is the dumbest thing I have ever done. Every step is a question. Just have read too many crevasse stories like wickwires epic in alaska to put the fear into me. (I think he was even roped up)

 

When it comes to questions of risk, you could ask yourself, "would this activity look really stupid in a accident journal?" For example, is it a good idea to wear helmets at vantage? Walking unroped on glaciers? Climbing ice in a major gulley on a warm day? What would the accident journal say as an analysis? Would it be unflattering? If so, don't do it. Use common sense which is hard for climbers.

 

Now I have gone unroped up palmer and muir (permanent snowfield without covered cracks)because I don't think it has crevasses. Maybe I am wrong?

[TMO]

After 18 years of glacier travel I had my first up close look at the bowels of the Nisqually Glacier 2 weekends ago. If I had been un-roped I would not be here now.

 

I like to always rope up on the glaciers but un-rope on the headwalls (unless putting in protection). Remember though that roping up is only part of the game (keep the slack out of the line, arrest skills, rescue knowledge...).

[LostCamKenny]

After 18 years of glacier travel I had my first up close look at the bowels of the Nisqually Glacier 2 weekends ago. If I had been un-roped I would not be here now.

 

I like to always rope up on the glaciers but un-rope on the headwalls (unless putting in protection). Remember though that roping up is only part of the game (keep the slack out of the line, arrest skills, rescue knowledge...).

 

Glad you're still with us!!! How deep was the gaper?

 

Ditto on the second part: roping up is useless if you don't know how to arrest a fall, and even if you can arrest a fall you still need to know how to pull them out!

[617]

Looks like the textbook answers still, which I'm in full agreement with at this point for my own personal glacier travel, ie always rope up on a glacier, but I'm still totally in the dark as far as what experienced climbers and probably moreso skiers see that allows them to decide not to sometimes. Is this a question for the main board rather than the newbie forum? I'm not talking difficult routes here, I just want to know where and more specifically why some people don't rope up.

 

Seeing a glacier naked the previous fall is an interesting thought, but not sure how much faith I'd have in it myself.

[sobo]

I do not rope up on a glacier every time. It depends upon many many things. That said, there are some glaciers where I would never step foot upon them without first roping up. Nisqually, Kautz, and the Carbon come to mind. I've seen so many dadburned holes in them fuckerz that I would never chance it with them. I've been up and down the Emmons both roped and unroped. Same with the Wilson. It all just depends. And that's just Rainier for an example.

 

So what I'm saying is your question can't be answered simply. It's like what you said about seatbelts... Do I always wear one? No, not always. When I'm barrelling down the highway at 70 mph, yeah, I'm wearing one. When I'm pulling the rig off the street and parking it in my garage? Nope. It's a matter of common sense. Go figure...

 

Suffice it to say that I do not climb, nor do I live my life, according to a pre-ordained set of rules. Rather, a set of guiding principles provides a much better framework for moving through this existence, IMHO. Principles are never-bending, and you will never go wrong by following what you have set up those principles to represent for you (honor, truth, loyalty, safety, common sense, etc.). Rules, on the other hand, are made to be bent and, if need be, broken. I follow no hard and fast rules, since to me, there is no such thing as a hard and fast rule.

 

So with all that said, let's attempt to address your concerns, applying my outlook of principle-based behaviors...

 

Or more precisely, when do you sometimes NOT rope up? What mountains, what grade glacier, time of year, weather conditions, etc. do you just not bother.

In early season on glaciers known to be crevassed, the slots are covered under a layer of snow. How deep/strong is that snow? Unknown, hence rope up.

 

In late season, when the snow has melted away and crevasses are in evidence all around you, you will (obviously) know where the crevasses are, and as long as you're not doing something that could cause you to end up in one (e.g., glissading with a run-out into a crevasse field), what would be wrong with ascending/descending unroped? Nothing, hence don't rope up.

 

Obviously everyone's level of risk acceptance is different, just wondering what the variance is and what to evaluate when stepping onto a glacier.

Time of season, known existence of crevasses, snowpack depth/strength, topography, evidence of hidden slots (think changes/indentations in snow cover), etc.

 

I took a crevasse rescue class this spring and the "company line" was basically any and all glaciers at all times, but I think that seems over conservative.

Yes, it is overly conservative, because they are preaching a hard and fast rule. See above for that discussion. But they are taking responsibility for teaching you (a n00b) something, so they are going to (obvisouly) err on the side of caution because of your admitted inexperience.

 

The Palmer Glacier on Hood (underneath the ski area!) seems an obvious exception to that rule but I'm new to glacier travel so who knows.

It is an exception (and again, the use of that word "rule"). I don't know of anyone who has ever trudged up to Crater Rock with a rope on, or anyone who would.

 

I also don't do any ski mountaineering (yet) but it seems like they are always unroped ripping turns on the way down. What are they seeing that gives them that confidence?

You would never go ripping down something with a rope on, because what would be the point of that exercise? Would that be fun? Would it be safe, lashed up to someone else moving at the speed necessary to have any fun? Clearly, it would not. Also, why schlep a pair of skis/splitboard/snowboard up something that you know in advance you will NOT be able to schuss down because of crevasses? Clearly, they CHOSE the route they are on WITH THE INTENT to ski down it. Obviously, these people know something about any particular route that you do not, and they gained that knowledge through years of practice, study, and just getting out there. They have seen, studied, and played on numerous mountains, hills, glaciers, couloirs and the like to the point of having enough experience to be able to judge the safety of travelling unroped. By your own admission, you are not there yet. But stay with it, get out a lot, and as much as possible with people that already know these things, and you will enjoy the same adventure and experience that the rest of us do.

[TMO]

LostCamKenny,

 

"Glad you're still with us!!! How deep was the gaper?"

 

She was a big one! My guess is probably 100+ feet, but it's hard to tell as I was in the process of shitting my pants at the time!

 

I knew it was a bridge as there was a maw to the left and a maw to the right but it appeared fairly bomber... no sag, deep snow, etc. So I stepped up to what I thought was the edge (correct) and was planting my axe on what I thought was the far side (in-correct), as soon as my axe hit the bridge an 8' by 25' section of it dropped into the hole. My feet were still on solid snow but as I was leaning forward I started to pitch in right behind the collapsed bridge. I was able to stick out my hands and catch the far lip and came to a stop completely horizontal.

Fortunately my partner had me tight at that point and was able to muscle me into a standing position!

 

Sobo speaks with great wisdom.

 

[Bug]

Cool. Sounds like a great view.

[TMO]

It was indeed a great view. Funny... when time slows down you can shit your pants and admire the view all at the same time!

[LostCamKenny]

It was indeed a great view. Funny... when time slows down you can shit your pants and admire the view all at the same time!

Funny how that can be the case!!!

 

[Wastral]

Rope up. Its good practice. One can get completely roped up in under 15 minutes if you are moving slowly, under 5 minutes if you already have your harness on. Besides you need to drink water and put on sunscreen right? Anytime anyone in the group feels awkward, rope up. Its fast and easy. You are all moving at the same speed anyways.

 

Humor aside: The only exception to roping up is when you are confident that if one guy slips he will simply pull the other guy to his death. In which case, STOP, retreat, or decide to belay very short sections. Remember snow does not hold like ROCK PRO!

 

For instance in super slush/super steep powder or if you don't have enough pro for a steep section of 45 degree hard snow/ice. Not enough pro and continuing climbing is just to make yourself feel good. Go up to alpental, the upper ski section (almost 35-40 degree snow), and practice catching someone elses fall with a heavy pack on your back while your partner is headed down the hill on his back. Good luck.

 

I have been in super thigh deep 45 degree slush, and we should have unroped, because if one slipped the other could never have stopped the fall. In fact in such conditions the rope just gets in the way and tends to pull the lead climber off the hill!!! I could barely stand as it was. It was the next thing to wet avalanche conditions. Should have probably stopped, but after a week in a tent...

 

I never roped up going across the Cache "glacier" , Lousy "glacier", triumph "glacier", or the blumps under Forbidden, and numerous other flat "glaciers" because honestly if they aren't large they aren't really glaciers. There are exceptions of course. Heck we jumped into the "crevasses" on under Forbidden because they made nice "chairs" for resting on our way up. They(glaciers labeled on the map) were jokes in other words.

 

Any long trip in mountain country, I always wear my harness 100% of the time anyways for extra padding and the rope is sitting in the pack so may as well use it if you are traveling over steep snow or glaciers.

 

Brian