Checat Posted April 9, 2009 Author Posted April 9, 2009 To say that I have come off a in my OP as extreme is acceptable to me. If you folks have paid attention: there are a ton of overbolted areas here in Oregon. In my mind even sport climbing should involve some amount of risk, and it was never intended for small children to be lead climbing. This is of course my opinion, but am a wrong? Is that what should be the norm, bolts every three feet so when my childs old enough to crawl we can get em on the sharp end? What does that say about the modern state of area development in Oregon? Do you really think I don't ever clip bolts? Of course I clip bolts sometimes...I climb in Oregon. I am taking an extreme stance on this issue because the balance has tipped so far towards the extreme "Disneyfication" that someone has to take the alternative stance. There are still a ton of climbing areas yet to be discovered and in my mind there is a severe lack of understanding a variety of development practices. Just like you would want people to bolt on lead where the rock permits this style, I want to see no bolts at all where permitted. Under the current climate this is the furthest thing from reality. Quote
Checat Posted April 9, 2009 Author Posted April 9, 2009 I don't know who this JosephH is but theres only one person that can appoint a climbing czar and I doubt Barack and Michelle have CC.com in there bookmarks... Moolack mtn used to be called Elk mountain, but because there were so many elk mtn's throughout the state the powers that be changed it to the chinook jargon Moolack for "elk". It has nothing to do with the "lack" of bolts... Quote
kevbone Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Bro……I think the idea of a no bolt crag is kind of neat…..just not sustainable. I wish that you owned the land it sat on….then you truly would be the climbing Czar. I also see a no bolt crag as a pain in the ass crag. Craging for me is supposed to be fun. Get in lots of pitches. I wont lie…..to me its all about convenience. Pull the rope, stack it ten feet down, tie on and off you go on route number 3 for the day…..repeat until the sun goes down. So it would be nice to visit this crag once or twice….but my time is limited so I might choose to go somewhere else….. You write your book. Enjoy…….. Quote
Checat Posted April 9, 2009 Author Posted April 9, 2009 You can be equally as productive at moolack as any other area in the state. That is kind of given to the ideal tree anchors that are there, which you can't expect of every crag. That's not to say all lines set up that way though. There are certainly are set-ups more akin to what somebody was talking about in regard to crags in Minnesota, where 100', 200' static lines are necessary, but in those instances, you don't have anchor lines roughing up bushes and foliage. These are all semantics specific to this particular area. My aim is to look at future development of other areas. Everyone will have different views towards what is Sustainable in regard to climbing crags, and really that is the task of this nations future Climbing Czar...like that position will ever really exist right... Quote
billcoe Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Bro……I think the idea of a no bolt crag is kind of neat…..just not sustainable. I wish that you owned the land it sat on….then you truly would be the climbing Czar. I also see a no bolt crag as a pain in the ass crag. Craging for me is supposed to be fun. Get in lots of pitches. I wont lie…..to me its all about convenience. Pull the rope, stack it ten feet down, tie on and off you go on route number 3 for the day…..repeat until the sun goes down. So it would be nice to visit this crag once or twice….but my time is limited so I might choose to go somewhere else….. You write your book. Enjoy…….. This place is further out than you would want to deal with Kevin. Convenience can be had close to your house. You can toprope at the butte or lap bolts at Ozone. This is something else. Its about the challenge and working the mental game. Cheecat, my wife says I already stick my nose into people business too much as it is, but I'd really, really suggest you not post the name (again), and hints like a previous common name or location. It won't be a good thing, mark my words. You should consider letting this go for years more along the path it's successfully been on and the history will be even more firmly ingrained. Discussing it in general terms is a good thing, as it will expose us to different ideas and attitudes, but going any further may lead to all kinds of sadness for you. There are all kinds of folks out there, best to only let in the ones you personally know for a while. Check this for instance: Crazy, needless shit link lest you think it's just crazy people, The Warbler is the well respected and well known yosemite climber Kevin Worrell. Good luck with your choices, your area: and warm regards! Bill Quote
shapp Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 (edited) I know and have climbed at the crag in question (the Lack). Why bring it up? To stoke an ego or an ethic that is lost forever in Oregon as a whole (though it is my ethic in general also). Better to be humble and and climb by example than to yell from the top of the hill, "hey you are wrong, be like me". my 2 cents as a majority trad climbing dirt bag Edited April 9, 2009 by shapp Quote
eldiente Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 I know of a no bolt crag somewhere near Warm Springs that is rumored to have splitter cracks and no lead bolts. There is however bolted anchors. Would this meet your requirement for a zero bolt crag? I'm all for the development of new area that emphasizes natural pro, however not installing anchors at a crag is just plain lazy. If the routes are dirty, nobody is going to bother climbing on them and keep them clean if the anchor is a pain in the ass to set-up. Also, installing bolted anchors doesn't "lower" the route or make it a "sport" route. Nor does tying off a bunch of bushes for your anchor make you some sort of bold climber. This is the the anchor were talking about, not the actual route. The anchor has not bearing on the difficultly or skill required to climb a route. Not having a fixed anchor only makes future climbers curse your name as they dig around in the dirt for a bush to tie off at the end of a lead. On multi pitch routes I would agree that bolted anchors make the route easier and bit less committing knowing you can rap at any point without leaving behind gear. In some areas it would be nice to see a few less anchor bolts on longer routes to preserve the committing feeling of the route. Quote
Checat Posted April 9, 2009 Author Posted April 9, 2009 I appreciate and respect both sets of advice (billcoe, shapp) but if you ask me "Why bring it up?" the answer is in your post "...an ethic that is lost forever in Oregon as a whole...". I've been humbly climbing there for years. There is no example set in mere participation. If I was resigned to the idea that this ethic is truly lost forever, then yes, I'd shut up and quit taking shots from these yahoos. But I don't think this ethic is lost. For as many people that have piped in on this thread about "wow, bolts are cool", there has been a number of people expressing that bolt-less climbing does have value and should be embraced. If I wanted to stoke my own ego I'd put more effort towards developing trip reports and spraying about my exploits. I'm not, I'm trying to make people aware that there are alternatives to climbing with bolts. Quote
Checat Posted April 9, 2009 Author Posted April 9, 2009 Yes, trout creek is pertinent to this conversation. Do I think it shouldn't have bolted top anchors? Who cares, its not my place to dictate where bolts go (for now but when I'm Climbing Czar that will all change, {insert evil mad scientist laugh}). My point in all this ranting and raving is that the practices should fit the area. For TC, having no lead bolts and bolted anchors is perfect. For the menagerie having spookily spaced bolts on lead is the fit. For the Lack having no bolts is the bees knees. Now if everybody understood development in this perspective I'd have no reason to have beef with the bosch bulldogs out there, but thats not how it is. Look at how far bolting has gone. Go to Flagstone, go to the Callahans if you don't believe me. Go to areas around Leavenworth (not in Oregon but still relevant) where you have high ball boulders with 10 bolts at the top. If people that value what the Lack has to offer truly understand these issues they would be shouting it from a mountain top because to think that ignorance and secrecy is a protection is absurd... Quote
kevbone Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 trout creek I dont think he was talking about Trout Creek. Quote
Raindawg Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Seeing as there is a fair number of people in this state that take an extreme view towards bolting the shit out of every chunk of rock, I don't mind being the only one out there willing to take an extreme view towards not. I'm trying to make people aware that there are alternatives to climbing with bolts. Brother Checat: I think you must be new around here. I've spent years promoting a clean-climbing ethic and bolt-restraint on this web-site only to be pissed upon over and over again. Do a search under the topic of "bolts", "BLT's". (Also, do a search about bolts under the posters "Dwayner" or "pope", the two most vocal advocates.) It's a topic that threatens many people because they think you might be taking their dumbed-down, sanitized fun away if you have any leverage with your ideas. Trust me, these guys are being tame with you. My suggestion: let it be known that your crag is to remain bolt-free and if any bolts show up, get out the crowbar. Also, do a search in cc.com on "Dan's Dreadful Direct", a climb on the mostly bolt-free Castle Rock in Leavenworth...it's a good example of the controversy of someone adding bolts to a trad crag followed by their removal. And if you want to be really annoyed, read the many posts dealing with the attrocity known as "Infinite Bliss". Also, "Dishman". These are just samples and all of these "discussions" will give you a better idea of the ins and outs and volatility of the bolting discussion that will better prepare you for your uphill battle with the so-called climbing "community". Keep up the good work! And here's a link for inspiration: Chouinard Catalog 1972: the classic clean climbing statements Read especially, "A Word", and "The Whole Natural Art of Protection." Quote
Checat Posted April 9, 2009 Author Posted April 9, 2009 Not new. take a look at the register 12/12/04. Know all(subjective) bout Infinite Miss. Have climbed DDD, and spoken to folks involved with the dishman issue. The problems of bolting has occupied my thoughts for far too long my friend. I just have failed to express them previous to this thread. Like I said before, I have focused on these issues in regard to a particular crag very near and dear to me for the sake of protecting said crag from bolts; now i'm starting to believe that letting people know about this area may contribute to a better overall understanding and may serve a better purpose than simply protecting it, and go beyond that to protecting future crags that have yet to see development. I know its pie in the sky but whats the alternative, continue burying head in sand? Quote
Raindawg Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Not new. take a look at the register 12/12/04. Know all(subjective) bout Infinite Miss. Have climbed DDD, and spoken to folks involved with the dishman issue. I guess you know it all then. Good luck! And for the rest of you, you knew this was coming so just let me get it out of my system. Behold, the elusive BLT's at the Exit 38 Deli....so many choices!: Quote
el jefe Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Not new. take a look at the register 12/12/04. Know all(subjective) bout Infinite Miss. Have climbed DDD, and spoken to folks involved with the dishman issue. I guess you know it all then. Good luck! And for the rest of you, you knew this was coming so just let me get it out of my system. Behold, the elusive BLT's at the Exit 38 Deli....so many choices!: oops! looks like grampa raindawg is off his meds again. Quote
eldiente Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 trout creek I dont think he was talking about Trout Creek. This was the place I had in mind... Quote
Checat Posted April 9, 2009 Author Posted April 9, 2009 I certainly don't know it all, I'm trying to put this crag into perspective with all the issues your bringing up and more... Quote
kevbone Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 trout creek I dont think he was talking about Trout Creek. This was the place I had in mind... Oh....well there is another place near there as well..... Quote
Checat Posted April 9, 2009 Author Posted April 9, 2009 (edited) Once again (and now in a more positive light) kevbone you are absolutely illustrating the message I'm trying to get out there: There is so much untapped rock in the state of Oregon. Pretty much you can go to any crag around the state and if you look hard enough you will find more and more untouched rock of its same nature within spitting distance. If all you naysayers out there are cool with all future development of these future crags getting bolts, then your right, I'm wrong and I should shut the F up. But I'm hoping there is enough of you out there that see the value in future areas going boltless.... Edited April 9, 2009 by Checat Quote
powderhound Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Paul, when you going to send me an ecopy of the guidebook? I am in the back and all. Quote
Checat Posted April 9, 2009 Author Posted April 9, 2009 (edited) You got it. I'm thinking more of a something in person when we do get a chance to get out there though Aside from getting some feedback from apparently some Crux gym climbers that have been developing out there and some more tweaks to the Style and Ethics chapter(LOL) I think you will be pleased with the progress since you saw it last... Edited April 9, 2009 by Checat Quote
corvallisclimb Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Paul, when you going to send me an ecopy of the guidebook? I am in the back and all. Don't get charged 80 bucks for that pile of paper like the other Brian in the back did. Must be the homie hook up price. Quote
Checat Posted April 9, 2009 Author Posted April 9, 2009 (edited) I didn't charge B 80 and if you only knew how unequal the gas fundage distribution has gone over the years you wouldn't talk... Besides, he's gonna be drinking a bunch of free beer at my wedding soon anyway so I can make it up to him then... Edited April 9, 2009 by Checat Quote
corvallisclimb Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Sorry I was just going off what I was told by him. Quote
Checat Posted April 9, 2009 Author Posted April 9, 2009 Its alright he says a lot of things. I say a lot things too, lol... I shouda been charging guiding fees this whole time in reality... Quote
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