a way to improve us-iraqi relations?

[ivan]

wouldn't it be a good step if obama asked the iraqi pres to pardon this guy?

[pink]

a book for a shoe....

[billcoe]

wouldn't it be a good step if obama asked the iraqi pres to pardon this guy?

 

no

[kevbone]

He should have thrown a knife.

[ivan]

wouldn't it be a good step if obama asked the iraqi pres to pardon this guy?

 

no

care to elaborate? the guy's a national hero in iraq, and what would be the sentence for an american who'd done that here?

[tvashtarkatena]

He should get a medal.

 

A small one; after all, he missed twice.

[Mtguide]

I think it would be an excellent thing to do; unfortunately, because it was former pres.Bush who was the target, then in legal and diplomatic terms, it is he who must personally request the pardon, in order for it to actually be implemented. And it's my sense that Bush won't ever do that. Not only is he still convinced that he did the right thing by invading Iraq, so that pardoning the shoe thrower might appear to be backing down somewhat from that position, but I also have my doubts that Bush is large enough, as a person, to extend the hand of pardon or forgiveness, or even to, in any way, show consideration or recognition of an opposing or critical point of view, of his policies or his presidency.

 

After all, this is the former Texas governor who set a national record for state executions during his tenure, including two inmates who were legally determined to be so mentally deficient as to be unaware of the nature of their crimes. He campaigned for governor on a promise to "clean out death row" in Texas prisons, and he certainly made every effort to do so. He also granted the fewest pardons of any Texas governor. He was very,very hardline.

 

Bush also set a record for the fewest pardons ever tendered by an outgoing president. As we all remember, this is the man who said "You're either for us, or against us." As a recovering alchoholic, Bush still exhibits the typical alchoholic behavior of a "dry drunk", characterized by "black and white" either-or thinking, petulance, and sometimes extreme stubbornness and obstinacy, which he of course preferred to characterize as "staying the course", in the face of any and all indications or advice to the contrary. Though Bush isn't now and never was a cowboy (he wouldn't make a pimple on a REAL cowboy's ass) he likes to affect that persona with folksy speech and John Wayne-style bravado (actually, there's someone else whose ass Bush wouldn't make a pimple on- Wayne was, in spite of his conservative views, a very decent man, as are many conservatives, and very ready to poke fun at himself and his image-very unlike Bush) such as when he said "Bring 'em on!" while of course hiding behind the entire US Military and Secret Service protection, utterly unmindful of the grave danger he had brought upon our troops, while satisfying his own immature impulse to threaten, goad, and taunt the enemy. Like a little kid with all the marbles and a rich daddy, he didn't think at all of others who might be hurt by his actions, not even on his radar.

 

He exhibited similar behavior after Hurricane Katrina, with "Heckuva-job Brownie", dawdling for over a week before actually actually showing up on the scene himself, and then, while strolling along the beach in Mississippi with Trent Lott and Dick Cheney, with destruction all around him, was caught on camera and audio saying what a shame it was that Lott's home had been destroyed, but not to worry, because "We're gonna build you a bigger and better house than what you had,", completely ignoring the dire immediate need of hundreds of thousands right there.

 

So no, unfortunately, though it could be a very helpful act to not just US relations with Iraq, but throughout the entire Middle East, I don't think we're going to see that anytime soon. The only way I can even think of even approaching it, might be if former President Carter was to go to talk to Bush on the shoe thrower's behalf, and to put it in light of such an action actually being in behalf of all us, on all sides, as a gesture which might do a very great deal indeed to open the door of forgiveness and peace, just a crack, to a world and the people of all countries and beliefs, who are thoroughly, utterly, completely devastated and weary of war, all war, any war, anywhere, for whatever reason.

[billcoe]

wouldn't it be a good step if obama asked the iraqi pres to pardon this guy?

 

no

care to elaborate? the guy's a national hero in iraq, and what would be the sentence for an american who'd done that here?

 

I should have said HELL NO! Hey, if it's gonna be a free-for all with no repercussions or penalties, then it's fine if a bunch of asswipes are going to start tossing tomatoes and other objects anytime some unpopular person steps into public? If the assault with the shoe had been heavy and broken Bushes nose would you still be fine with it? That we should ignore the rule of law and just overturn some shitheads conviction for "expressing" himself because Bush is not popular seems like a real real bad idea. If he had thrown a book at Vladimir Putin based on being angry at the Russian invasion of Georgia would that be OK? Pick many similar scenarios throughout the world and ask if that is the kind of world you want to live in. It would certainly make diplomacy unnecessarily difficult to engage in.

 

This would, however, make New York an interesting place when the next Yassir Arafat type or Robert Mugabe shows up on the streets on the way to the UN. "Oh look, Robert Mugabe, what a prick I think I'll throw my laptop case at him I don't like his policies"....hmmmmmm

 

Sorry, I don't get it. There, I elaborated, but it shouldn't have been necessary should it, you knew what I was going to say didn't you?

[ivan]

i'd imagine it'd just take a pardon from the iraqi pres, and anyone could ask for that?

 

but again, anyone know what the penalty woulda been here in the us? i'd imagine the secret service woulda pummeled his ass good, but would there actually be charges as it was essentially a form of symbolic speech (since he missed ) and was not reasonably likely to have caused the target any harm anyhow? am i wrong in thinking this guy woulda limped away w/ a few bruises but nothing else?

[billcoe]

Can't say: the closest I ever got to that kind of thing was getting my ass slammed down hard for standing too close to in the path Robert Kennedy was walking.

 

 

His wifes autograph took some of the hurt out of it:-)

[ivan]

 

I should have said HELL NO! Hey, if it's gonna be a free-for all with no repercussions or penalties, then it's fine if a bunch of asswipes are going to start tossing tomatoes and other objects anytime some unpopular person steps into public? If the assault with the shoe had been heavy and broken Bushes nose would you still be fine with it? That we should ignore the rule of law and just overturn some shitheads conviction for "expressing" himself because Bush is not popular seems like a real real bad idea. If he had thrown a book at Vladimir Putin based on being angry at the Russian invasion of Georgia would that be OK? Pick many similar scenarios throughout the world and ask if that is the kind of world you want to live in. It would certainly make diplomacy unnecessarily difficult to engage in.

 

This would, however, make New York an interesting place when the next Yassir Arafat type or Robert Mugabe shows up on the streets on the way to the UN. "Oh look, Robert Mugabe, what a prick I think I'll throw my laptop case at him I don't like his policies"....hmmmmmm

 

Sorry, I don't get it. There, I elaborated, but it shouldn't have been necessary should it, you knew what I was going to say didn't you?

no, i didn't know exactly what you'd say or i wouldn'tve asked

 

what if he had thrown his dirty underwear at him? or foam slippers? i'll grant you a shoe could cause enough harm to qualify as an assault, and if there had been actual physical harm he should have been prosecuted, but the in end it was a non-injurious event, for which the time he's already spent in jail (and there was some initial report that his arm had been broken as well?) would be more than enough.

 

i do think throwing shit at unpopular leaders in new york city would be totally fine, assuming the intent is not to harm but merely make a statement - it's symbolic speech, which the supreme court has upheld as part of the 1st amendment - the message would clear to arafat or mugabe, either don't be a prick or choose a parade route that keeps you a good distance from everybody!

 

what happened to the guy who put a pie in bill gates face?

[billcoe]

Speech is free. Toss a pie (or 3) and it's assault.

 

Really.

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/249066.stm

 

pie tossers were fined. They go out of their way to make the pies soft. Here's the details. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No%C3%ABl_Godin

 

Can we assume then, that you are also fine with the school kids throwing books, shoes, panties and pies at you anytime they please for ANY REASON WHICH THEY DEEM ACCEPTABLE in class then?

Edited March 12, 2009 by billcoe

[ivan]

an 88$ fine seems fine to me - certainly a world of difference between that and 3 years in an iraqi jail!

 

as to my class, the supreme court has generously afforded me the right to limit some freedoms if i deem them to be disruptive of the learning environment tinker vs des moines school district (1969) confirmed this, while protecting students right to symbolic speech (like wearing a black armband) so long as it does not interfere with the rights of others or the learning process - so yeah, i'd be fine w/ limiting pie/panty throwers in my room, but permitting it at the mall or on the street outside your house (and i've awarded extra credit for tagging you now, boy-o, so watch out! )

[tvashtarkatena]

If being a tosser were illegal, we'd all be in jail.

[billcoe]

LOL!

 

Actually, your point is well taken Ivan. 3 years in jail seems excessive for sure. That's a long time to rot in a prison cell thinking: "Wish I'd gone with the Black Armband....Wish I'd gone with the Black Armband.....Wish I'd gone with the Black Armband"

[Mtguide]

My guess is that any form of assault or attempted assault on the president, even with a creampuff, would be taken very,very seriously. After all, they investigate every possibility of even threats to the president, let alone overt actions. I think the penalties would pretty severe, jailtime, fines, probably continued follow-up surveillance for years. A jelly donut, even a bouguet of flowers could conceal C-4 plastic explosive, ricin, anthrax, etc. From the standpoint of the Secret Service, those guys have to be continually alert, wary and suspicious of absolutely everything, no matter how harmless it might seem, while yet allowing people to shake the president's hand, etc. Tough job.

 

I can see Bill's point about not allowing the public carte blanche to express their feelings in this manner, even though it's been a time-honored tradition all over the world. For one thing, people didn't use to have C-4, etc. But beyond that, even though Bush and Cheney violated our own Constitution, and caused untold suffering in Iraq AND to the families of our own troops right here, even though people such as Mugabe and others are truly heinous criminals, we nonetheless have to be the gold standard of the rule of law in civilized society. Otherwise we'd be dealing with a total guessing game, no idea of what would happen next. Thomas More,the Chancellor of England who was beheaded for refusing to approve the annullment of Henry the Eighth's marriage to Anne Boleyn, said from his cell in the Tower of London, under sentence of death, that, in spite of his own impending peril,"were it not for the law, there would be no place for an honest man to hide.".

 

From what I've been told by friends who were there recently, you're no longer allowed to throw things at soapbox speakers holding forth in London's Hyde Park, where rotten fruit and vegetables have been hurled along with invective for centuries. I guess all that's left for vegefruitarian or copro-(shit-flinging)anarchists is the annual "Il Tomatina", the big tomato street fight in Valencia, Spain (also known as the "Human Gazpacho") or the similar War of the Oranges ("Battaglia degli Aranci") which takes place in Ivrea, Italy three days before Lent. I think there's also a spaghetti war somewhere in Italy, too. No meatballs allowed.

 

 

[billcoe]

Acknowledging your forsight Ivan:

 

The Shite looks about to hit the fan on this subject.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090313/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq

[ivan]

Acknowledging your forsight Ivan:

 

The Shite looks about to hit the fan on this subject.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090313/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq

thanks - but my proposal i doubt would amount to more than re-arranging the deck chairs on the metaphorical titanic - all of recorded history shows the middle east's preference for totalitarian states puctuated by epochs of barabarity at the passsing of one bastard-regime for another - we just spent our trillions of dollars and thousands of lives to give the gaint shit-hopper a couple good stirs (and maybe dropped our wedding ring into the bottom of the bucket in the process?)

[billcoe]

Speaking of Shite:

 

Don't be talkin no trash about Khamenei or the other grand assahotola. This is thought crime and will be severly punished in Iran.

 

 

"Iran blogger jailed for Khamenei insult dies

Mar 19 06:50 AM US/Eastern

 

 

A young Iranian blogger jailed in Tehran's notorious Evin prison for insulting supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has died, his lawyer told AFP on Thursday.

 

Mohammad Ali Dadkhah said that although there is not yet an official report about the death on Wednesday of Omid Mir Sayafi, "officials in the prison said that he committed suicide."

 

He demanded "an immediate inquiry and an autopsy into why he died."

 

Dadkhah said another prisoner in Evin, a Dr Hessam Firouzi, "had warned officials in the jail of the state the young blogger was in.

 

"Dr Firouzi called me from the jail to say Omid had a slowed heartbeat and he had taken him to the infirmary, but that doctors there did not take this seriously and said he was faking it," Dadkhah said.

 

He added Firouzi reported that Sayafi had also been very depressed.

 

The blogger, aged around 25, was sentenced in February to 30 months in jail for insulting Khamenei and Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, founder of the Islamic Republic.

 

Sayafi was first arrested in April last year and released on bail after 41 days before being detained again this year.

 

Iran has launched a crackdown on bloggers and Internet users deemed to be hostile to the authorities and their Islamic values. "

 

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.07bbbd956513da57cbd653fdde9c7ca2.431&show_article=1