The Right to Bolt?

[jblakley]

You certainly know how to stir a pot.

[Yossarian]

Jman,

You have taken the topic of bolting and merged it with such issues as dumping toxic waste and the stupidity of corporate America.

Bolts are used, like trails, to provide a form of recreation. We, as a society, have determined these forms of leisure activities are acceptable considering the small impacts they have on the world around us. I may enjoy climbing a sport route, others may enjoy riding horses, while still others may spend the weekend on a dirtbike. It seems you are not showing much respect for others by condemning activities which you happen not to participate in. I don't think 4X4's should be ripping it up Mt. Rainier, but I also respect the interests of others and think they should not be outlawed.

You live in this greedy corporate world, driving your SUV, eating processed foods, and wearing bleached underwear all the while stating "I'm not going to change the world and I have no intention of it." Yet you point the finger at a group of people who you know very little about and, on average, show incredible respect for the earth.

When you point your finger to blame someone, you still have three figures pointing back at you.

 

 

[Jman]

Yoss-

"When you point your finger to blame someone, you still have three figures pointing back at you."

That's cute. Did you learn that in the 3rd grade?

"You have taken the topic of bolting and merged it with such issues as dumping toxic waste and the stupidity of corporate America."

You have to admit they do share some similarities in 'environmental ethics', but probably more so in emotional fervor.

 

"a group of people who you know very little about"

Since when do you know exactly what I know or who I know? For all you know everything I've said could be made up. Ever hear of playing the Devil's advocate?

"driving your SUV"

Sorry, I'm not a SUV-driving yuppie. Good try though.

"It seems you are not showing much respect for others by condemning activities which you happen not to participate in."

Not sure what you mean here... if you're referring to climbing, I DO climb. If I said "I climbed Rainier" but don't *rock* climb, am I NOT considered a "climber"? Be careful about what you think I do or don't do. And I mean no disrespect to anybody and their forms of recreation. Nor am I "condemning" anyone. I just want to hear what your reasons are and why you feel the way you do and perhaps make comparisons to put things into scope - to put things in perspective, not just for you, but mostly for me (since I share the mountains, too). Besides, this is entertaining.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Yossarian:

Jman,

You have taken the topic of bolting and...

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Yes, I think this rounds it up. Amen.

[Dru]

just about anyone can use a trail but you've got to be a climber to use most bolts!!!!

[jblakley]

I move for a change in the topic of this thread. New Topic: "Circus Clowns and why they should be put to death". Ok I expect to hear some intelligent retorts from all you clowns out there!

[Jman]

BOLT 'EM! BOLT 'EM ALL TO DEATH!!!

Clowns ruin the environment with all their make-up. They also cheapen my circus experience when all I want to see is animals of nature and freaks of nature.

[Yossarian]

Jman,

Way to get the crowd going! You have been supporting your ideas well, but I would like to retort on your comments.

"So what? If you didn't climb them what do care whether or not they were climbed?"

I didn't land on the moon either, but it's still good to know we made it. If your not going to climb El Cap, what do you care if there are some pins under the Great Roof?

"You mean our ability to conquer and hence destroy our environment? It takes no great skill nor ingenuity to drill a hole and plug it with a bolt."

I don't believe climbers set out to conquer a mountain or cliff. It's an inanimate object. The engineering required to invent tools to solve the problems of a shear wall, that's ingeneous. The final pitch of the Nose went down in history because of how it was bolted, it took skill and determination.

What gives you the right to say I can't rap off a sling or clip a bolt? It won't affect you because you wouldn't be on a route that didn't go 100% clean, no impact. Does environmental impact always take priority over safety and progress? How much does fixed gear really hurt the enviroment? Use chalk, ever left a jammed nut, or pulled off a handhold? If you climb you WILL impact the rock, even following the highest standards.

[Matt]

Captain,

Just to clarify, all the bolts on Cocaine Crack have been removed. However, clearly somone had done some drilling up there. Like I said, I saw the remains of a bolt at the bottom of the crack, the rusty threads sticking out of the clean granite. Higher up the crack where the face steepens I noticed a drilled hole where I assume there was once a bolt. The hole was maybe six inches from the crack at the crux. Someone had pulled the bolt and done a fine job of it as there was really no need-- a bomber #1 cam placement could be found in the crack. I don't know why someone would drill here but the damage done was minimal. There's no need to go rushing up there guys, unless, of course, it's to climb this cool crack.

The existing bolts that I mentioned are on a route not listed in my guidebook. The route is on the far right of the buttress, I think they are to the right of "Ions" and "Tourons", starting on a ledge about 15 feet off the ground. The bolts follow a finger crack and then there are two lines of bolts that follow a face to a set of strange fixed anchors. The anchors are strange because they are missing chains but have 4 u-shaped connectors with pins and rap rings in the ends. Someone should at least fix the anchors.

[This message has been edited by Matt (edited 07-23-2001).]

[Dru]

somehow i have a feeling that bit about bolts on coke crack is a myth - if not someone out there is a ood target for tarring & feathering.

hmmmm in answer to jman all i can say is them's my ethics. what gives me the right?how about that climbing is practical anarchy. I have never had anyone who climbed my routes complain about the bolts except for the lack of them in certain places where i figured it was good to run it. cmon up to squamish and climb a few if you want - chop em if you can, i don't care.

squamish without bolts would have a hell of a lot less routes. if i want to climb totally bolt free i head to the mountains because us alpine climbers in sw bc are too lazy to take drills along. yeah but we bang the pins in! man i placed 5 pins and 6 screws yesterday. it was good fun. the only thing better than placing 6 screws would be screwing in 6 places.... i can't take this thread seriously today, sorry, i'm too tired.

[rr666]

 

Just thought I'd put my two cents in as well. I do not think that anyone has a right to place bolts (on public property). Fortunately for climbers (especially sport), we do have the privilage of placing bolts. Unlike a right, privilages can be taken away. If climbers as a whole group do not step up to our responsibilities of taking care of our land. None of us will be able to climb any more, let alone place bolts.

I climb trad, clip bolts, boulder, and aid. It is all good. But in the end, it all must be done responsibly. I am for placing a line of bolts up a nice unprotectable face to create a climb, but am against grid bolting. Compare it to trails, (that is what bolting is doing, creating a trail up a rock). Is building a hiking trail in the wilderness taking something away from nature and permanently damaging it? Yes it is, but without it, people would not enjoy the beauties of nature. But we would not like to see a whole grid of trails through a forest? I am sure most of us would say no.

Let's be responsible and take care of the rock ourselves before someone else takes over. Lets not bolt cracks, and lets not grid bolt. Safety is great, but not every square inch of rock should be climb.

 

[dberdinka]

Matt, Capt. Haven't climbed it in several years, but whats with bolts on Cocaine Crack? Thanks.

[jblakley]

Cocaine Crack bolted? That's rather fu*&ed up that anybody would think of bolting that. I can't say I'm in the die hard anti-bolting camp but that's total bullshit. That climb takes gear very well.

[Jman]

Yoss-

"I didn't land on the moon either, but it's still good to know we made it."

I don't really care that man landed on the moon. It's simply a 'look-what-we-did-and-we-did-it-first" accomplishment. Really, of what practical use is it to you personally that someone has walked on the moon?

"If your not going to climb El Cap, what do you care if there are some pins under the Great Roof?"

How would you feel if the Americans (or, Russians) left metal junk on the moon after they had achieved their 'quest'? - you're never going there, right?

"Use chalk, ever left a jammed nut, or pulled off a handhold?"

No. You probably could (but haven't) figured from my comments that I don't climb. However, that makes me no less entitled to my views of how public land should be used (not abused). In fact, I might represent an even greater majority - the non-climbing community - as opposed to the relative minority of climbers, and the fewer yet who believe they have a right to bolt. Lesson: consider all opinions on public land, not just those of climbers.

Dwayner-

"This "regurgitation" IS changing things."

Thanks for pointing this out. I have been considering branching out into climbing and originally thought it no big deal to just buy some quickdraws to climb 'sport' routes. However, due to this site ALONE my view have been drastically changed. I no longer feel it is ok to permanantly impact even stupid rocks. And you're right about slings, they can easily be removed without any impact (that I know of).

 

 

[Andrew_Grove]

Bolts on Cocaine Crack? I've never heard of anything so ludicrous. Matt, thanks for removing them; sorry you had to spend climbing time doing that public service.

btw -- what's with bolts in Icicle and Tumwater this year? They're sprouting like 'shrooms in a cow pasture after the rain.

[Jman]

Me-

"Is building a hiking trail in the wilderness taking something away from nature and permanently damaging it?"

I've given thought to that, too. Remember, trails are used by more than just humans. I would venture to say some of the modern trails were in existence long before white man - goats, deer, elk, etc. all trample out small paths and I'm sure some of these became the 'path' we travel today. In addition, a trail is not a permanent defacement of the land - trails do eventually 'grow' back if not maintained. Holes in rock on the other hand do not.

"But we would not like to see a whole grid of trails through a forest?"

I agree. Again, the key word is respect. In order to live on this planet some amount of 'irreversible' change is necessary. But consider how it will impact future generations - is the change to suit my selfish pursuits at the present? Or, would it be better left alone? Ask: How am I showing respect for others and respect for the land/property of someone else?

[Yossarian]

Jman,

"I don't really care that man landed on the moon."

I think you are an exception.

"How would you feel if the Americans (or, Russians) left metal junk on the moon after they had achieved their 'quest'? - you're never going there, right?"

First of all, we did leave tons of shit on the moon. Second, I don't care...just as I don't care if there is a bolt protecting a blank wall 2000ft. in the air. Why should you care?

Bolting should be limited not because of the environmental impact (virtually nil), but because it is more enjoyable to climb the rock in its natural state. Improving the quality of climbing is the greatest case against the addition of more bolts.

I agree with the comparision between bolts and trails. They are fine in moderation. If you want to live a no-impact lifestyle, that's fine, but that doesn't mean I have too. I drive a car, landscape my yard, and clip bolts, so what?

[freak]

I pitty the fool who gets caught bolting up cocaine crack, I would dig out my #11 hex clip it to a sling and get all medeival,

hehhjhjhjhjhehehhehehejejejjjeeeeee

Yo offwidth, when we gonna go boulder crimpin again. we should meet at banks lake when it cools off and do a first accent marathon!! In the middle of nowhere!!! that thing called Top Flight looks rad, ps hows your elbow? nick