Crampons...rigid?

[Dane]

A few here will remember when hard ice climbing demanded rigid crampons.

 

Chouinard, SMCs, Lowe Foot Fangs and Grivel made them as well as a few others not so well known. Grivel and a few others are still in the game.

 

I held a pair of the newest Rambos and the BD Cyborg yesterday and was surprized to find the BD weighed more.

 

How many of you have used a rigid in the past and why did you change to a hinged or semi rigid?

 

Your personal preference for ice, mixed or alpine?

 

[Chad_A]

I use the Rambo 4s; did all last season. I hadn't planned on picking up a set...much like other pieces of gear that I have, it was a good deal that fell into my lap.

 

It's been a great experience climbing with them. To me, lots of the ice boots out there (particularly the Boreal Ice Master) are labeled as rigid boots, but aren't quite "rigid" in effort to make the walk into the climb more bearable. The rigid Rambo 4s help out with that; they're not the lightest crampons out there, but they sure climb well to me.

 

In the alpine, I tend to refer to my BD Sabretooths (I'm on my second set) as they do everything pretty well.

[Dane]

Similar to my choices Chad. Started using hinged crampons with plastic boots. Thought was with rigid boots, crampons could flex a bit with little loss in performance. And the set up was a lot lighter.

 

Compared several pair of rigid to the newest flexable crampons last winter, changing crampons on each pitch while soloing Professors. Had forgotten just how good rigids were on pure ice. The current generation of rigid soled boots with flexable ankles work very well with rigid crampons.

 

 

[marc_leclerc]

The Cyborgs are great but are heavy. I think the Sabertooths are fantastic crampons for alpine stuff. Cyborgs are great on mixesd and steep ice.

[John Frieh]

I climb ice to get better/faster/more efficient at climbing it in the alpine. Because of this I try to ice crag/climb using my "alpine setup" as often as possible (not always an option though).

 

As alpine around here is more mixed/snow slog than fat pure ice I climb in semi rigid crampons both in the alpine and "ice cragging"

[Alex]

I used Charlet Grade 8's for a while, which were hinged, very light and had vertical front points. They climbed ok, but their points and dsign were not the best at column-type things, nor general snow etc. thus not really that great for alpineish endevours that are mostly snow. I like the more modern crampons, sadly heavier, with toe-hooks. I've since switched to a slightly more modern BD crampons Sabertooth and the predecessor to Cyborg( Android? Whatever) which has nice toe hooks and hybrid front point, plus the option for mono's, after Weekend_Climberz let me try them out and they climbed well.

[Don_Serl]

i fully agree that rigid crampons are superior to modern "semi-rigids" (a salesman's expression meaning "flexible") for ice. in fact, for anything. for many years i used step-in chouinard rigids for everything: expeditions, glaciers, mountain mixed, alpine ice routes, waterfalls, the works. they were best on hefty leather boots, altho of course in the early days i used them on plastics. eventually one broke on a spring route in the Niut Range, and inspection of the others (i have two pair) revealed more cracks, so they got retired.

 

i tried to replace them with another rigid but my boot size is big (11 1/2 or 12), and the length combined with the extent of sole curve won't allow Rambos or the Terminator to snap onto the boots. and the modern rigids all feature 'cookie-cutter' frames (i.e., vertically oriented frames) which vary between annoying and dangerous, even with antibots, which dulled my enthusiasm.

 

so I ended up climbing on G14s for a few seasons (very nice, but the bulk of the front points seemed to shatter waterfall ice more than i hoped); then Sarkens (unimpressive, then recalled); and now Vasaks (which allowed me to rediscover the pleasure and efficiency of horizontal front points). spent some time along the way on black ices, footfangs, and the BD mako too. all of the hinged crampon/boot combos have been a bit sloppy, a touch inaccurate, lacking in fine control.

 

the advent of light modern footwear (which inevitably is more flexible than heftier stuff), coupled with the inability of crampon manufacturers to build effective rigid crampons has led us to a time in which there's no easy way to perfectly accurately control what's going on with your front points. i ride a motorcycle too, and i strive to use tires that directly transmit 'the road' to me, and my intentions to the road. i love climbing slabs, and i want my footwear to be totally 'transparent' (meaning, not impeding in any way the 'feeling' of the rock beneath my feet, and directly transmitting whatever pressure i choose back to that rock).

 

i recall an expression from maybe 30 years ago relating to kayaks, in which the (German) manufacturer said that "the boat was an extension of your will". this is precisely the condition that we should all be striving to achieve in our relationships with all our climbing equipment, and (maybe except for fruit-boots) the inability to do so with the modern combination of overly light footwear and flexible crampons bugs me.

 

but i can't see a solution.

can you?

 

cheers,

Edited November 7, 2008 by Don_Serl

[Dane]

Awesome post Don, thank you!

 

I was looking for some varification to my own experience.

I also started with Chouinard rigids and because of the worry on breakage went to SMCs. Only the addition of clip on bindings convinced me to leave the SMCs behind. So I still have a pair of the last Selewa/Chouinard clipons. That is the crampon that brought me to this discussion.

 

I also have size 12 feet so I know a rigid boot is hard to come by. My last pair of leathers were Haderers. Heavy but my goodness they fit and climbed well. I was pretty shocked last winter playing with different crampons on the same climb. Because of that I have a silly amount of scrap iron and different boot styles in the basement at the moment. One of my first goals this winter is to find a set up (or set ups) that I think does work well in comparison.

 

I am thinking it must be in part our large feet that adds to the issue and turns the "semi/rigid" into "the hinged crampon/boot combos have been a bit sloppy, a touch inaccurate, lacking in fine control." Although I know Frieh's feet are close in size as well. For me a dead rigid boot is mandatory for "fun" ice climbing. The battle between weight and boot sole flexability goes on but.

 

I have found nothing that is as solid and as comforting as a rigid soled boot and a rigid crampon on steep ice or long alpine ice routes. On shorter modern M climbing stuff it hasn't seemed to make a difference. My old stand by combo for rock or "mixed" to 5.10 was plastic boots and hinged crampons so I am not too surprised guess. Having the crampon move bit I suspect does keep you on the rock longer. Either way I'll let you know my impressions after I get a chance to climb on the gear I have here.

 

Thanks again to all for the input.

 

[Don_Serl]

I have found nothing that is as solid and as comforting as a rigid soled boot and a rigid crampon on steep ice or long alpine ice routes.

 

so Dane, u got me thinking about how i've been missing rigid crampons. so before heading off down to the seracs this past sunday, i dug out my old BD Makos. they have balling-up problems with the cookie-cutter heel frame, and i already had funked together a home-made plastic plate. you can't do much about the freezing/balling which occurs under the alu sole-plate (i tried wax, without effect). i seem to recall there were some problems with the bolts stripping out of these sole-plates too, but mine are intact. also, the "trident" front point system put WAY too much metal into the ice in WAY too small a space, so they shattered ice better than any other crampon i've ever had the (dis)pleasure to have worn.

 

BUT - they've got a nice rigid frame and a good bail and heel lever system.

 

SO - i turned the secondary trident points around backwards and just torqued the bolts back down. presto: now the crampon has a mono-point, plus a couple weird secondaries under the ball of the foot (maybe useful for clawing or stemming onto knobs?)

[google "black diamond mako" to source up photos of the originals]

 

and they were pretty nice on the seracs. pretty nice... easy to place, totally rigid. just tap 'em in and stand on 'em. (wore my 'big' leather boots too - had to tape my heels for the walk-up, but much nicer than my scarpa mantas once i was on the ice)

 

as you know, i'm no fan of vertical crampon points (too much shearing in crappy coastal ice), but i intend to give these fellas another ride at the beginning of this winter.

 

thanks for the stimulus.

 

cheers,