Is this safe?

[WooferDoggy]

Are the following commonly accepted behaviors for an "Intro to Mountaineering" course offered by a private climbing school? Prerequisites for the course are backpacking experience only (no rock climbing, etc,. req'd). Lead guide is IFMGA certified.

 

Pre-course briefing

participants are invited to bring their own ropes if they have them

participants are invited to bring their own tents if they have them (Three-season tents deemed okay despite four season conditions)

 

On-course

no discussion of care of ropes

no discussion of proper helmet wearing (with predictable results)

instructors routinely standing on climbing ropes

knots not checked for neatness after first day

asst. instructor has just two years of climbing experience

asst. instructor not anchored on exposed ledge while monitoring 50 metre vertical rappel

students expected to pass asst. instructor to the outside in order to tie into rappel (more exposed than asst.)

only back-up on rappel for beginners is a prussik, briefly intro'd. No belay on rappel.

no real checking of harnesses after first day

course elements as marketed not covered on-course (planning multi-day objective, mountain navigation, etc.)

 

Stuff like that. Maybe these can be chalked up to differences in style? I don't want to superimpose my own program's standards, but I was getting an accumulation of red flags as the course prgressed. I asked in another forum whther this might be a more Euro approach and one poster predicted the guide was from the Mediterranean part of Europe.

 

Just trying to process this experience.

 

 

[Joe_Poulton]

I'm glad my intro to Mountaineering years ago with AAI out of Bellingham was a lot safer (in my mind) than that....it's like that Patagonia video shot in Siberia/Russia/USSR...where ever it was...no boby climbs with ropes, gear or even shoes and people just fall off sometimes...

[Bug]

My OPINIONS follow.

 

On-course

no discussion of care of ropes Basic course should focus on safety while on the rock.

no discussion of proper helmet wearing (with predictable results)Deserves a brief overview.

instructors routinely standing on climbing ropes. BAD form.

knots not checked for neatness after first day. Bad idea. I check my partners' knots and visa versa every time.

asst. instructor has just two years of climbing experience. Asst = OK imo

asst. instructor not anchored on exposed ledge while monitoring 50 metre vertical rappel. Bad form. Some tie in is needed for example if nothing else.

students expected to pass asst. instructor to the outside in order to tie into rappel (more exposed than asst.)Untied? VERY BAD.

only back-up on rappel for beginners is a prussik, briefly intro'd. No belay on rappel. Pretty standard as long as the prussick is checked.

no real checking of harnesses after first day. Every member of the team should be checked by someone else every time.

course elements as marketed not covered on-course (planning multi-day objective, mountain navigation, etc.)These are advanced topics. I find that if you lecture too much, they start loosing details. Some of those lost details could be life threatening. As an instructor, you have to play that by ear with each group and see what else they may or may not digest.

 

 

[WooferDoggy]

Bug, pretty much what I was thinking. I figured the two years exp. for the asst is an acceptable minimum if the guide is strong. The asst. is really an unpaid intern enrolled in an outdoor leadership program at a college using this private school.

I also figured in sport climbing a rappel without a belay might be protocol.

With the not-covered course items, part of the reason I chose this course over a competitor was their listing exactly these curriculum elements in their material. These pieces weren't just covered briefly. They weren't even mentioned.

 

Somebody in rec.climbing suggested the European guide sounded like he came from a particular part of Europe, and he correctly guessed which neck of Europe he came from.

[Bug]

Yes.

I have seen some European techniques that seemed deadly to me.

Way underwhelming at best.

 

Did you complain to the school? You should.

[WooferDoggy]

I'm thinking about it. I would want to speak directly to the instructor first so I'm being straight up with him. I liked him well enough. I wouldn't be looking for consequences for the guy, just growth.

[Bug]

Good luck with that.

I'm guessing you'll be talking to the hand.

[RuMR]

Read a frickin book, its not rocket science...

[Bug]

No spray in the Newbies section please.

[RuMR]

Not spraying...people tend to make climbing out to be some mystical bs...its about 99% common sense and 1% knowledge...

[bstach]

Are the following commonly accepted behaviors for an "Intro to Mountaineering" course offered by a private climbing school? Prerequisites for the course are backpacking experience only (no rock climbing, etc,. req'd). Lead guide is IFMGA certified.

 

Pre-course briefing

participants are invited to bring their own ropes if they have them

participants are invited to bring their own tents if they have them (Three-season tents deemed okay despite four season conditions)

 

On-course

no discussion of care of ropes

no discussion of proper helmet wearing (with predictable results)

instructors routinely standing on climbing ropes

knots not checked for neatness after first day

asst. instructor has just two years of climbing experience

asst. instructor not anchored on exposed ledge while monitoring 50 metre vertical rappel

students expected to pass asst. instructor to the outside in order to tie into rappel (more exposed than asst.)

only back-up on rappel for beginners is a prussik, briefly intro'd. No belay on rappel.

no real checking of harnesses after first day

course elements as marketed not covered on-course (planning multi-day objective, mountain navigation, etc.)

 

Stuff like that. Maybe these can be chalked up to differences in style? I don't want to superimpose my own program's standards, but I was getting an accumulation of red flags as the course prgressed. I asked in another forum whther this might be a more Euro approach and one poster predicted the guide was from the Mediterranean part of Europe.

 

Just trying to process this experience.

 

 

no, thats not safe.

[Bug]

Not spraying...people tend to make climbing out to be some mystical bs...its about 99% common sense and 1% knowledge...

But don't you think that from your post to "read a frickin book" it might be easy to infer that you do not want people asking questions on this site?

Asking quqestions on the newbies forum is what the newbies forum is for. If you don't want to read newbie questions, "GO READ A FRICKIN BOOK" instead.

That's not rocket science either.

[RuMR]

Bug, there is such a thing as a stupid question, despite the old adage...

[Bug]

There's also such a thing as grumpy old men.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

There's also such a thing as grumpy old men.

 

RuMR: Bug is right.

[RuMR]

about grumpy old men?...well, that's a big "duh"...

[moronbros]

Sounds like that instructor was building a pretty bad foundation. I'd probably make sure they followed up with all the others that received this instruction. The students should be re-taught what to do, or even bettter, your points should be used as an example of what not to do.

[WooferDoggy]

I'm hoping to meet with the instructor Tuesday. I took myself off the course just before the summit attempts mostly because of my discomfort stemming from the first few days, plus an equipment failure. I had NO confidence that the other students would be safe to climb with. Because I left, I can't be certain the guides didn't correct themselves, but I have no reason to think they would have. In the moment, I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt, not be a "negative," unsupportive presence, not impose my (Outward Bound-based) standards, etc., since OB is traditionally uber-safety conscious. I didn't have a enough breadth of experience outside of OB to be confident that this guide was not up to snuff, safety-wise. Input from this and another climbing forum has given me the confirmation I was looking for, although this IS a North American forum, which I'm told is another animal than Europe. The guide was Europe-trained & IFGMA certified, which is hard to get in the US, but maybe parts of Europe are more relaxed. As I understand it, in the US there are three disciplines: rock, alpine, and skiing, all with several levels of competency within each discipline. You don't get IFMGA certified in the US until you attain the highest level in all three areas. A (German) guy in rec.climbing contrasted Medditereanean guides with IFMGA guides trained, say in Switzerland, along the lines of "There is a saying that in heaven the cops are British, the cooks French, the engineers German and the singers Italian, whereas in hell the cops are French, the cooks British, the engineers Italian and the singers German." I'll certainly talk to the lead guide and asst./intern, and probably shoot a letter to the owner. With the other students, I'm pretty confident I'd be talking to the hand, as Bug said earlier.

[shaoleung]

Woofer - your experience sounds pretty scary. The instructor/class lacks some serious leadership... a vital part of every climber/class.

 

Many new climbers hand over their lives to "instructors" and employ a blind-faith approach. While this is usually not fatal it sets a fatal precedent. There are many examples of fatal climbs where the climb leader/instructor was the first victim. No one's infallible.

 

If you suspect something is unsafe while you're tied in, you should always say something. Any respectable climber you're with should be happy to explain why it is safe.

 

As for "frickin' books"... there is no substitute for experience and books form part of that experience... as do classes (albeit bad ones). Even the best of courses need to be supplemented: reading about specific climbing techniques/methods that you're interested in; asking questions on a forum like this; finding some grizzled old climbers to show you their tricks.

 

You start to build your knowledge... talk with people... and become a climber. Ahhh... metamorphosis.

[WooferDoggy]

Many new climbers hand over their lives to "instructors" and employ a blind-faith approach. While this is usually not fatal it sets a fatal precedent. There are many examples of fatal climbs where the climb leader/instructor was the first victim. No one's infallible.

 

One guy on the couse is planning to buy his way to the top of Everest. It's a two year plan. He had no prior experience, but has set the cash aside. He's planning to do Denali next year and Everest in 2010. With this crew. That goes against everything I believe in about mountaineering. Not that there isn't a place for guides, but if my guide goes down, I want to have the skill base to walk out on my own. Or not go.

[marc_leclerc]

Many new climbers hand over their lives to "instructors" and employ a blind-faith approach. While this is usually not fatal it sets a fatal precedent. There are many examples of fatal climbs where the climb leader/instructor was the first victim. No one's infallible.

 

One guy on the couse is planning to buy his way to the top of Everest. It's a two year plan. He had no prior experience, but has set the cash aside. He's planning to do Denali next year and Everest in 2010. With this crew. That goes against everything I believe in about mountaineering. Not that there isn't a place for guides, but if my guide goes down, I want to have the skill base to walk out on my own. Or not go.

 

I completely agree with this statement. Paying someone else to climb mountains for you (fixing ropes ect...) doesnt count as climbing your mountain..

[WooferDoggy]

Hi Marc! It's me Jim! See you tomorrow!