Ethics, dropping gear and micro-fractures

[Chad_A]

 

BTW; the new Metolius 4 cams units, the Mastercams, look like they get stuck easier than any other cam out there. (IMO). Joseph got one stuck solid on a new route, theres one stuck in Cruisemaster, and I almost stuck the blue in Young Warriors last Sunday as well. (Lotta work for my second to get out).

 

what about the design results in them getting stuck more often?

 

I'll be damned, it's not just me.

 

I don't know what does it, but man, they do get stuck easy. Supposely they're the same range sizes as their other cams, cam-for-cam, but I don't have as many issues with the other Metolius stuff I have.

 

Edit- I think I'm supposed to put one of in here.

[hemp22]

yeah, interesting observation about the master cams Bill - I just saw a fixed one today too (bottom of little wing I think - a yellow one). it still wiggled a little, but might come out with enough determination. One of the Kevlar trigger wires was already busted.

Maybe it has to do with the combination of the very flexible stem with the relatively small range.

[denalidave]

yeah, interesting observation about the master cams Bill - I just saw a fixed one today too (bottom of little wing I think - a yellow one). it still wiggled a little, but might come out with enough determination. One of the Kevlar trigger wires was already busted.

Maybe it has to do with the combination of the very flexible stem with the relatively small range.

Pretty sure that one is Chad's, who made the last post before you. As as I heard the story, the reason it stuck is because the trigger wire broke. I guess Metolious stepped up to the plate and had a new one to him the next day though.

[marc_leclerc]

I was making a scary retreat and I didnt know if we would get out okay.. I ended up forgetting 5 cams and a bunch of stopppers and biners because of stress and so many things going on at once, then the rope was not long enought to rap so we did a big single line rap with two ropes tied end to end and managed to cut the excess 30m of rope. I beat myselft up over this because I have little money being 15 and need money for upcoming trips, which I may now have to cancel. If this was someone elses gear I would have paid in full no matter how much it screwed up my vacation, but since it is my gear I just got pissed off. I intend to get that gear back tho since I know where it is. If my partner lost this gear I would have been completely chocked if he didnt pay me back i would never climb with someone like that

[XXX]

 

My truth was called into question based on a handful of studies that suggest micro-fractures do not in fact reduce the integrity of biners. I responded, "Then you can use the one you dropped and I'll take a new one."

 

What is the right thing to do? Is there consensus on this one?

 

Don't be a cheap skate man. All over a 15 dollar biner? Climbing partners should respect one anothers gear, but dont get your undies in a bundle over something so minor. Especially if it is someone you have climbed with on a consistent basis.

Edited July 20, 2008 by XXX

[kevbone]

You drop it you buy it. Simple.

[minx]

I prefer to climb with easy-going, flexible, undemanding partners...

 

Bingo! As a side note, this handy tip pretty much makes everything about climbing more fun.

 

and add a cold beer and we're good to go

[pink]

i dropped a bunch of pitons doing aurora in a push and chongo found everyone of them. he dropped them down to me from his ledge two pitches up on south seas , then we smoked a bowl together using a tag line and a stuff sack while listening to "and justice for all". he returned my gear and i thumbed one in, which in my book would be a win win situation. POETRY

 

i wonder what sport climbers and boulder hoppers snivel over

[billcoe]

.......which in my book would be a win win situation. POETRY

 

Dude! You got a book? Damn, now, you AND Chongo both have books! Who knew?

 

 

Link to Chongos book list

[pink]

no, but i've been booked by danno a few times

[markwebster]

It does seem like dropped gear becomes less of an issue the longer you climb. My latest partner just got into trad, and she counts all her gear at the end of everyday. I haven't counted my biners in years, though I do make sure I haven't lost any of my new cams each time we pack up. Most everything has already been said on this subject already but one thing I didn't see addressed was the subject of whether dropped gear is ok.

 

There has been a ton of talk on the internet (rockclimbing.com) about micro fractures, or the lack thereof. I did a bunch of research the last time a buddy dropped an expensive cam 100' and found that most people now agree that as long as the dropped item functions normally (gate and cams move smoothly) it's just fine.

 

There was a big test done around 20 years ago where they (black diamond) picked up gear at the base of el cap that had been dropped all the way. They tested it and it was fine, as long as it still functioned. For more reading on this subject, search rockclimbing.com for microfractures, or visit this link: black diamond .

 

I've been climbing on my dropped gear for about 5 years now. Call me crazy, but us poor folks gots tah to what we gots tah do.

[shaoleung]

Microfractures: As with everything... it's very subjective. I am using the biner dropped 60' and while it may be OK to use the one you drop from El Cap, I am pretty sure I wouldn't.

 

As for tracking biners... I worry that the message being sent is an old-school message. If you're climbing with a well-established group of friends, a lost biner here and there... or even a lost cam is no biggie. However, if you are climbing with a lot of different people and you may or may not climb with them regularly, it is important to at least offer to pay for dropped/lost gear. More as a matter of etiquette than monetary reimbursement.

 

I am a relatively new transplant to the NW and have climbed with dozens of people over the last few years. I have a few that are now regular climbing partners and I could care less if they have some of my gear when we drive home. But if I didn't care and each of the people I climbed with had a biner or two, I wouldn't have any gear left.

[Peter_Puget]

I have no idea what an old school message is.

 

A certain loss/destruction of gear is simply a normal part of climbing. Climbers should be willing to eat losses within this level regardless of who is “responsible.” Since these losses are simply a normal part of climbing I am indifferent to the whether my partners are old regulars or new acquaintances.

 

[Peakpimp]

Its kinda like when I go out to dinner with my parents, even though I know they'll pay (as I'm a "starving college student") when the meals finished I still do the "Courtesy Reach" for my wallet until they say don't worry we'll get it.

[shaoleung]

Yes and yes.