TIBET

[Fairweather]

WARNING - Graphic content. This is how the PLA handles Tibetan resistance. Do you think these folks had a real trial?

 

http://www.friendsoftibet.org/main/execution.html

[sexual_chocolate]

I don't "idealize" the Tibetans or the situation there, but what has happened to them is grossly unfair and injust. I will not allow myself to become to cynical about these things either though.

 

those are good points, and appreciated. but if directed at me, i can't neccessarily accept the "cynical" charge simply because i believe the situation is multi-componential, and has various aspects that interest me in a way that doesn't follow the "mainstream".

[sexual_chocolate]

He spoke about how, in his travels and interviews, he found NOBODY in Tibet who wanted to wage a resistance movement

 

this is the part that worries me: exactly WHO is the FREE TIBET crowd crowing for?

 

The FREE CUBA crowd is and was crowing for the monied elite who actually lost something after the batista ouster. the rest (about 70%) WELCOMED the change, but all we heard was the ridiculous agit-prop of the representatives of the previous oppression.

 

OMG, could the same be happening in Tibet?

[Hugh Conway]

meaning amongst the "commoner" tibetans? that the strident calls for autonomy come from the monk and lama classes?

 

other groups of Tibetans want autonomy as well.

[dmuja]

This doesn't make it right in some ultimate moral sense, but the fact is that the whole idea is largely fueled by Western yuppies who drive volvo's and imagine Tibet as the mystical kingdom featured in the film Shangri La. Why aren't we campaigning over East Timor? Or ... And as Sovereign points out: you probably see as many free tibet bumper stickers in Seattle as you do free Iraq. What's up with that?

 

 

Matt,

 

It's not "Western yuppies who drive volvo's and imagine Tibet as the mystical kingdom featured in the film Shangri La (bla bla).." that are now dying in Tibet at the hands of the Chinese military, I thinks it's actual Tibetans - probly monks and nuns and young people mostly - who simply want a right to freedom of religion and to protect their culture.

 

If you got some hang-up about "yuppies" who support the Tibetan cause then I might suggest that a shrink could help with your hang-up. The "whole idea" is being fueled by smart tactics, smart timing, and desperation on the part of TIBETANS.

 

 

[mattp]

muja, I'm not arguing there is anything right about what the Chinese are doing.

 

Ask my dear friend Fairweather here: I'm as much of a knee jerk liberal as anybody and some of my best friends are yuppies who drive Volvo's. I found Schell's arguments quite convincing, however. I'm not suggesting you take the bumper sticker off your car but I do think it worthwhile to engage in some introspection.

[sexual_chocolate]

The "whole idea" is being fueled by smart tactics, smart timing, and desperation on the part of TIBETANS.

 

 

WHICH tibetans? that's the whole point here, and the point that you aren't addressing.

 

as far as his "volvo yuppie" thing goes, i can understand his point (without a need for counseling). i've certainly met people who sing the Free Tibet song (or some other flavor of the month thematic), and when you start talking to them, their grasp of the situation is as limited as the typical Republican's regarding Iraq.

[mattp]

i've certainly met people who sing the Free Tibet song (or some other flavor of the month thematic), and when you start talking to them, their grasp of the situation is as limited as the typical Republican's regarding Iraq.

 

That was exactly my point, Mr. Cocoa. We tend to adopt causes or positions based on a sniff test without bothering to or in some cases even having the ability to really research the issues and ponder the broader implications of this or that campaign. I'm not sure Mr. Schell's five year old ideas are the be-all and end-all on this topic but he certainly made me think there may be more behind the story and broader issues at stake than I read in the Seattle newspaper.

[dmuja]

 

 

Fair enough matt,

 

I'd like to add that if we wait for the ideal "perfect cause" before we offer any support for what is right then how are we different from the yuppies that "idealize" Tibet? This - like any other cause - is imperfect and taken up by flawed individuals. Im sure some might be "shocked" to learn that some Tibetans actually have engaged in lets call it "less than non-violent" behavior in the past or even in this case, not me. The support for the Tibetan cause may even run a bit deeper than most critics give due. Slogans are slogans, we live in the land of commercial advertisement and people do what they must to bring awareness on any level. (BTW- I don't have a bumpersticker etc..lol). Since the DL has called for merely some measure of autonomy -as opposed to independence- the new stickers now read "Hear Tibet".

[sexual_chocolate]

Dmuja: if possible, i'd like to hear your thoughts on my previous ramblings regarding exactly WHICH tibetans we are talking about.

 

 

Originally Posted By: dmuja

The "whole idea" is being fueled by smart tactics, smart timing, and desperation on the part of TIBETANS.

 

WHICH tibetans? that's the whole point here, and the point that you aren't addressing.

 

 

and the possible relevance of the cuba example i mentioned.

 

any thoughts?

[sexual_chocolate]

In a sense, I do. They were clearly fucked over even worse than the Tibetans. The only argument I would make is that the morality norms of 1607-1830 were even less evolved than they are today. (An admittedly weak position, I know.) The surviving tribes seem to be making a go of it these past ten or twenty years, but I would not be opposed to a reparations scheme. The (so-called) natives then living in the Americas didn't hold the same notions of private property that their western European conquerors did. There was a clash of civilizations and, frankly, raw power won out. I think its sad that it manifested itself in such an ugly way, but does that mean I'm going to move back to my ancestral home and relinquish my property here? No.

 

i like the idea of some sort of reparations....

[dmuja]

 

 

SC,

 

Here's who, The vast majority of ethnic Tibetans who have had there religion and culture greatly suppressed in some cases destroyed, their human and political rights denied, their land and environment taken over, the ones who have watched friends and relatives arrested or killed over many many years for simply keeping with their own cultural values and not adopting the Moaist values of the Chinese occupiers. Are ther other minorities in Tibet? Sure there are - for example the small minority of Tibetan muslims. How they feel about the Chinese oppression of Tibetans I can't answer. The Dalai Lama has also repeatedly spoke about the importance of respecting all minorities in the Tibet as envisioned by the Government in Exile. A Tibet that would be democratic and not ruled by any religion or single political dogma. Maybe youre too cynical to believe that though? If youre trying to make an arguement that the PLA have brought about peace and justice to Tibet, Id have to laugh and then point out the actual history of the occupation.

[dmuja]

 

 

Interesting NYT report --->

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/world/asia/16cnd-tibet.html?hp

 

 

 

 

.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

That said; I wish the people of Tibet well in their struggle against their communist oppressors.

 

do you wish the native american well in their struggle against the capitalist oppressors?

 

You mean those savages that were constantly at war with one another, altered the land (yes they did), took slaves, and loved to take war prizes like scalps, or maybe those down south who cut the hearts out of living victims or clubbed the backs of skulls for "fun"?

 

[Hugh Conway]

any thoughts?

 

Since western journalists aren't free to travel in Tibet and expressing anti-China sentiment is a crime it's rather difficult to get an accurate impression of the situation.

 

China has shown it's true colors in it's reaction, expelling foreign tourists & journalists, censoring newscasts, blocking the internet (yahoo and google unavailable) and generally being its totalitarian self.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

any thoughts?

 

Since western journalists aren't free to travel in Tibet and expressing anti-China sentiment is a crime it's rather difficult to get an accurate impression of the situation.

 

China has shown it's true colors in it's reaction, expelling foreign tourists & journalists, censoring newscasts, blocking the internet (yahoo and google unavailable) and generally being its totalitarian self.

 

yeah, but we waterboard terrorists and throw them in gitmo, so we have to STFU and say nothing. moral equivalency.

 

[Dechristo]

 

China has shown it's true colors in it's reaction, expelling foreign tourists & journalists, censoring newscasts, blocking the internet (yahoo and google unavailable) and generally being its totalitarian self.

 

Heard on the radio, today, they are now blocking access to YouTube.

[sexual_chocolate]

 

SC,

 

Here's who, The vast majority of ethnic Tibetans

 

I have to play the devil's advocate and ask where you would find the statistical support for such an assertion as "The vast majority".

 

The Dalai Lama has also repeatedly spoke about the importance of respecting all minorities in the Tibet as envisioned by the Government in Exile. A Tibet that would be democratic and not ruled by any religion or single political dogma.

 

I expect this would be a change from the tibetan past, a more recently adopted value (and one i would espouse).

 

Maybe youre too cynical to believe that though?

 

of course not. i view the dalai lama favorably; my only problem is when folks elide the realities of tibetan life, pre-chinese invasion.

 

i would also think that the "average" chinese citizen's take on tibet would be quite different than yours, perhaps similar to the "average" american's take on the "native american" situation.

 

If youre trying to make an arguement that the PLA have brought about peace and justice to Tibet, Id have to laugh and then point out the actual history of the occupation.

 

oh good lord, "peace" and "justice"? i don't think there is a sniff of it in tibet. i'm certainly no proponent of chinese methodologies.

[sexual_chocolate]

an interesting thought:

 

Tibetan Buddhists in general are firm believers in a rather exoteric and one might call superstitious interpretation of karma. I'm sure there are nuanced differences between sects and lineages, but everything i've come across suggests a belief that ANYTHING which befalls one, from the common cold, to a tiger attack, to cancer, to birth defects, arises from some action of the past, be it a past life, or in this lifetime, or when one was a donkey.

 

wouldn't it then logically follow that, accordingly, the chinese oppression is simply a consequence of past karma, negative karma at that, and the way through (as with all karma) is to become witness to the manifestations with no attempt to change or rectify it, beyond following the 8-fold path?

 

hmmmmm.....

 

 

[Dechristo]

i would also think that the "average" chinese citizen's take on tibet would be quite different than yours, perhaps similar to the "average" american's take on the "native american" situation.

 

Do you have any statistical support for such an assertion?

 

 

In 25 years, let the World Court create an autonomous Tibet as a Central Asian Israel.

[sexual_chocolate]

i couched my proposition as a possibility, not as a truth.

[Hugh Conway]

i would also think that the "average" chinese citizen's take on tibet would be quite different than yours, perhaps similar to the "average" american's take on the "native american" situation

 

and thus we've established that once again Sexy Cocoa doesn't have a clue

 

Han Chinese = want Chinese empire which they are head of

 

Other ethnic subgroups = want right to their own culture and often autonomy(see Uighurs)

[sexual_chocolate]

i would also think that the "average" chinese citizen's take on tibet would be quite different than yours, perhaps similar to the "average" american's take on the "native american" situation.

 

Do you have any statistical support for such an assertion?

 

some stuff i read about some chinese being interviewed and calling the tibetans backwards and superstitious, and saying tibet was really chinese land. i forget where i read it.

i do doubt that this is the typical american take on indians though, unless it came down to surrendering land back to them....

[Dechristo]

 

Tibetan Buddhists in general are firm believers in a rather exoteric and one might call superstitious interpretation of karma. I'm sure there are nuanced differences between sects and lineages, but everything i've come across suggests a belief that ANYTHING which befalls one, from the common cold, to a tiger attack, to cancer, to birth defects, arises from some action of the past, be it a past life, or in this lifetime, or when one was a donkey.

 

Would that manifest as braying... or spraying?

 

wouldn't it then logically follow that, accordingly, the chinese oppression is simply a consequence of past karma, negative karma at that, and the way through (as with all karma) is to become witness to the manifestations with no attempt to change or rectify it, beyond following the 8-fold path?

 

hmmmmm...

 

It also includes the witnessing of manifestations of others in the others' micro-actions as part.

 

The current dark time of Tibet was foreseen by them.

[sexual_chocolate]

 

Han Chinese = want Chinese empire which they are head of

 

Other ethnic subgroups = want right to their own culture and often autonomy(see Uighurs)

 

you mean we can't lump all chinese into the same category? shocking!

 

(but tibetans we can, har har.)