Leavenworth route question

[lancegranite]

What's the score on the bolted routes next to La Cucaracha and Madsen's chimney?

They look good, but documentation is lacking.

[old 5.9]

I don't know what they are, but I saw those last fall while up at Madsen's Chimney. Being that I'm primarily a crack climber they seemed like unnecessary clutter around two nice crack climbs of decidedly different flavors. They are something to attract folks who might not otherwise even be up there, kind of like that bolted thing next to Dogleg crack.

[selkirk]

The bolted thing next to Dogleg is actually a pretty good climb, once you figure out the secret handshake . Worth a quick run if your over doing Dogleg or the others on Alphabet already.

[old 5.9]

It exsisted as a toprope for years though before someone decided to bolt it. Now it just crowds stuff that's of better quality, and gives you some bolts to beat your chest with. Oddly, I've seen people style the clip up then get their butt kicked on Dogleg which is two number grades easier. Apparently it is easier to figure out a handshake than it is to figure out a handjam.

[sprocket]

I'm curious how it crowds anything? What difference does it make if someone is leading it on bolts or toproping it?

 

You can't compare two different styles of climbing. A lot of people get practice face climbing in the gym or sport climbing areas, that doesn't mean it is easier, just that they have more practice at it.

 

Dogleg is strenuous for the grade and penalizes climbers with big hands but it is not harder IMO than the bolt line.

 

It's not a bolt line that impedes any trad lines, why make a big deal out of it. Just another line to climb or not. I doubt a bunch of sport climbers are going to show up and crowd the crag and they certainly won't be leading Dogleg if they don't have a rack and some trad/crack skills.

[pope]

What does it crowd? My style, that's what. We're talking about a face climb that was for decades a nice little top-rope problem, probably climbed on lead and free-soloed an uncountable number of times. It certainly doesn't need bolts, any more than the top-rope problems at Bruce's Boulder. In it's current state, anybody who climbs in the area will be once again reminded of everything that is pathetic about sport climbing and the trail of trash attendant thereto.

 

The bolts on this climb do not respect the first ascent of the climb, the tradition of the climb, the flavor of climbing on that cliff, nor the wishes of those who prefer to keep climbing wild, adventurous and free of trash.

[lancegranite]

I thought it looked fun!

Climbing, it is so much...

fun.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2008 by lancegranite

[selkirk]

It exsisted as a toprope for years though before someone decided to bolt it. Now it just crowds stuff that's of better quality, and gives you some bolts to beat your chest with. Oddly, I've seen people style the clip up then get their butt kicked on Dogleg which is two number grades easier. Apparently it is easier to figure out a handshake than it is to figure out a handjam.

 

I led Dogleg clean first and got worked trying Hindquarters when I was done. (in fact I think Dogleg was my first 5.8 gear lead).

Bolts to beat your chest with? Somehow I don't think so. It's a fun little route but certainly nothing to brag about.

And crowding? I've led it concurrently with people on Dogleg and never had an issue with crowding. It's also the only sport route there so I really doubt any sport-only climbers are ever going to get on it. The only people I've ever seen on it had just finished Dogleg.

I'd also much rather see it bolted and leadable then relegated to top roping (IMHO it's always better to lead) or free soloing (IMHO this isn't the brightest of activities).

 

 

[sprocket]

I was up in Squamish a couple of years ago and led what I thought was one of the coolest 5.8's I've ever been on. Sewed it up real good with cams and stoppers. When I got down I looked in the guide book and realized that the first ascent by someone named P. Croft was a free solo, man I hope he isn't mad at me for not respecting the style of the first ascent.

 

Oh, and there is a really cool bolt line to the left of that 5.8 at Squamish.

 

Sorry for the thread drift lancergranite.

[lancegranite]

These things usually drive with one hand on the wheel one on the E-brake, messing with the cd player and flipping the other guy off.

[TrogdortheBurninator]

Why is hindquarters better with bolts? The top is easily accessed by climbing dogleg, or walking around. It'd be one thing if only one or two bolts were used to connect features on the route, but a sport climb in that location, with that top down access seems unnecessary. It is a super fun line though, and definitely seems a good bit harder than dogleg.

[sprocket]

I don't think anyone said it was better, just that they would rather lead a bolt line than top rope it.

[chucK]

I'd also much rather see it bolted and leadable then relegated to top roping (IMHO it's always better to lead) or free soloing (IMHO this isn't the brightest of activities).

 

Why is leading always better than toproping, but free soloing "not bright"?

 

When you lead (using in situ bolts) an easily topropable climb all you do is add some degree of danger and a little bit of practice clipping the rope to bolts. When you free-solo you are also adding a degree of danger, but freeing yourself of all that clunky rope, gear, belayer, etc.

 

The difference, of course, is the degree of danger you've added. In both cases the degree depends on the climber and the climb.

 

Maybe people enjoy the "little bit of extra danger" that a bolted lead adds to the toprope problem. But it seems at best quite artificial. For that carefully dosed measure of aritificial adventure is it really worth ruining the day of many folks like Pope and Old 5.9? Seems inconsiderate to me.

 

[TrogdortheBurninator]

if a then c

I don't think anyone said it was better, just that they would rather lead a bolt line than top rope it.

 

seems to me that is exactly what you and selkirk were saying.

[selkirk]

To me the primary challenge in climbing has always been mental. I'm not a big fan of top-roping as for me it removes the mental aspect almost completely since there are absolutely no consequences to falling. The physical part is secondary. While bolts certainly mitigate the consequences, the biggest challenge is still the mental aspect of controlling your reactions when there is fall potential (even if the actual danger minimal, is much less than the perceived.)

 

Free solo-ing certainly ups the anti, and I can respect those who do it, but I have yet to meet any old climbers who still free solo. The risk/reward balance to me doesn't equate so well when the risk of a mistake is effectively infinite. It seems like a very dangerous game for young men with large ego's and perceptions of invincibility, and I don't think I've ever been afflicted with that.

 

As a side note the vast majority of climbing I do on lead, and tend to prefer trad to sport and sport to TR-ing. So while I appreciate the bolts and have enjoyed leading Hindquarters, I also think cracks are inviolate. As memory serves there is some gear to be hand on Hindquarters so I'd probably be in support of pulling some of the bolts. But having only free-solo and TR as the only options isn't attractive to me.

 

 

[Blake]

We're talking about a face climb that was for decades a nice little top-rope problem, probably climbed on lead and free-soloed an uncountable number of times.

 

By this logic, all climbs of the notorious 10d Squamish offwidth "Pumpline" are in bad style, because the FA was a Free Solo, and now nobody is "respecting the style of the FA".

[sprocket]

People come into climbing for different reasons and have different levels of risk tolerance. I am fairly risk averse and have an innate fear of heights but find climbing extremely exhilarating even if I’m sewing up a crack or clipping bolts. Every time you leave the ground there is an element of risk even if it’s in a climbing gym or on a ladder. I’m never going to be a free soloist but I also respect people like Bachar and Croft for the mental aspect of what they were willing to risk. I find most of the arguments about bolting to be somewhat disingenuous, it’s ok to place a bolt on lead if certain criteria are met (even if that includes hanging on hooks while doing it) yet placing a bolt while hanging from above is a sin/crime. Life and climbing are full of compromises, most of us use modern ropes, protection, sticky rubber, we drive to most of our climbs etc. In my opinion adding some bolts to a top rope problem is not a big deal, this is not some alpine climb or traditionally protectable climb. I’m sorry if it ruins the experience for some but you can still stick to your own principles and climb with your own ethics and hopefully not have to compromise them. Like Blake said and I mentioned earlier, places like Squamish have tons of routes that were first ascent free solo’s since Croft did a lot of the route development there. If you were a true purist you’d not use a rope on them and to me that would be a shame since lots of nice climbs would sit unclimbed. I don’t know Peter Croft but I suspect I didn’t ruin his day by using a rope on that climb a couple of years ago.

[ZONK]

all this Smack talk over a simple question......WTF ?

[selkirk]

all this Smack talk over a simple question......WTF ?

 

:lmao: :lmao:

 

Are you new here?

[Dane]

To me the primary challenge in climbing has always been mental.

 

Then sack up and solo. Fuck'un bolters think they are saving the world. In reality they are trashing it for future generations. Old and still soloing, thanks.

[selkirk]

Good for you You're the first now. But I'm still not willing to risk the consequences of failure while soloing.

[G-spotter]

We're talking about a face climb that was for decades a nice little top-rope problem, probably climbed on lead and free-soloed an uncountable number of times.

 

By this logic, all climbs of the notorious 10d Squamish offwidth "Pumpline" are in bad style, because the FA was a Free Solo, and now nobody is "respecting the style of the FA".

 

it's Pipeline. Pumpline is in Leavenworth.

 

And it was the FFA that was the freesolo. The FA was on aid, with sawed off pipe chunks as bongs - hence the name.

[ZONK]

Not New, just think its funny and a little dumb how things drift away from the question.

[el jefe]

funny "haha" or funny "strange"? yes, it is pretty funny the way some of the people on this website twist every forum into a tiresome antibolting tirade...

 

it's also "funny" that everyone here seems to assume this meaningless little route was soloed in the past, although i'm sure no one knows who this mythical soloist was. the "solo ascent" is presumed to have occurred because it bolsters an otherwise specious argument.

[ZONK]

Well said ! and funny strange the kind of people out there !